The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 14, 2015, 03:37am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,705
Pre-Game Technical Fouls

It is late and I getting senile in my old age. And we have discussed this play in the past and I am pretty sure there is either a NFHS Casebook Play or a NFHS Pre-Season Rules Interpretation that covers it (and some of us here on the Forum consider the CB Ruling/Pre-Season Rules Interpretation is incorrect). None-the-less, here is the Play as I remember it:


PLAY: With 8:00 on the game clock prior to the start of the game, Team A adds a Player to its Roster. With 5:00 on the game clock prior to the start of the game, Team B adds a Player to its Roster.

RULING: Each team is assessed an Administrative TF. The TFs, which constitute a FDF, are to be considered to have occurred simultaneously and there for no FTs are attempted by either team, and the game is started with a Jump Ball at Center Court.


There are some of us that believe that the RULING is not supported by Rule. We take the position that, yes the TFs are a FDF but did not occur simultaneously and therefore, each TF carries it own penalty and FTs are attempted for each TF in the order in which the TFs occurred, with the Ball put into Play is if the last FTs for the second TF is the only Foul that occurred.

That said, I cannot remember either the NFHS CB Play or in what year the NFHS Pre-Season Rules Interpretation the Play occurred.

Hopefully, one of the young guns on the Forum will do my work for me.

Thanks.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 14, 2015, 05:23am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,595
Do you recall your own posts?

From this thread: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tart-game.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
NFHS has always been order of occurrence, so that's your answer.
The problem is that someone from the NFHS wrote a case play a couple of years ago which conflicts with the text of the rules and 6.4.1 Sit A. That case play is 3.4.3 Situation C and it states to treat any technical fouls by opposing teams prior to the start of the game as offsetting double fouls.
There is no way to resolve these conflicting rulings. Therefore, I will be going with the text of the actual rule and enforcing the penalties in the order in which they occur if such ever happens to me.



NevadaRef and I agree on this situtation with regard to NFHS CB Play 6.4.1 Sit. A and NFHS CB Play 3.4.3. Sit. C. CB Play 3.4.3. Sit. C was added to the 2013-14 NFHS Casebook. The sad part of the RULING for CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C is that it references CP Play 6.4.1 Sit. A to support its Ruling. I though that the NFHS Rules Committee would have cleaned up this mess before the start of the 2014-15 season and correct the RULLING in CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C to conform to CB Play 6.4.1 Sit. A.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Toledo, Ohio

Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Mon Dec 22, 2014 at 11:33pm. Reason: Changed "back up" to "suport' in the next to last sentence.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 14, 2015, 07:18am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,705
Nevada:

I knew I could count on you, . Thanks.

Our (Mark, Jr., and me) season starts on Wednesday.

Have a great season.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 14, 2015, 07:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,216
FWIW, NCAAW agrees with "the new Mark" that both Ts are penalized in this situation. Start with 4 FTs and resume POI (the jump ball),
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 16, 2015, 09:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Mentor, Ohio
Posts: 508
3.4.3 situation c, comment

Just to add to Mark, Nevada and Bob:

3.4.3 COMMENT describes the situation to be a double technical which hardly seems to fit the definition found in 4-19-8 b: "a situation in which two opponents commit technical fouls against each other at approximately the same time." Both case plays (3.4.3 C and 6.4.1 A) fit very well by definition of a FDF: "a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock has started following the first."
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 16, 2015, 10:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 172
How do you all keep these straight? A dunk and than opposing dunk we shoot them in the order they occurred. Scorebook technicals by both teams we treat it like a double tech and no shots. Anyone have any helpful advice?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 16, 2015, 11:46pm
beware big brother
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: illinois
Posts: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfan1981 View Post
How do you all keep these straight? A dunk and than opposing dunk we shoot them in the order they occurred. Scorebook technicals by both teams we treat it like a double tech and no shots. Anyone have any helpful advice?
Don't call anything you don't know how to administer properly.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2015, 02:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfan1981 View Post
How do you all keep these straight? A dunk and than opposing dunk we shoot them in the order they occurred. Scorebook technicals by both teams we treat it like a double tech and no shots. Anyone have any helpful advice?
I'm guessing that pregame book infractions must be considered to have occur together just as the game starts rather than the actual moment the book is changed.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2015, 07:53am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'm guessing that pregame book infractions must be considered to have occur together just as the game starts rather than the actual moment the book is changed.

That is the supported NFHS interpretation, yes. Agree or disagree at your own peril.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2015, 08:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfan1981 View Post
How do you all keep these straight? A dunk and than opposing dunk we shoot them in the order they occurred. Scorebook technicals by both teams we treat it like a double tech and no shots. Anyone have any helpful advice?
Admin Ts vs. Player / Sub Ts.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2015, 07:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Admin Ts vs. Player / Sub Ts.

That makes sense. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2015, 10:40pm
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,344
A)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NFHS has always been order of occurrence...There is no way to resolve these conflicting rulings.
or
B)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'm guessing that pregame book infractions must be considered to have occur together just as the game starts rather than the actual moment the book is changed.
or
C)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Admin Ts vs. Player / Sub Ts.

Are we going by unofficial consensus on this issue, or is there an actual NFHS interpretation that solves this apparent conundrum?
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call
www.myvirtualofficialsassociation.com
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 17, 2015, 11:47pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
A)
or
B)
or
C)


Are we going by unofficial consensus on this issue, or is there an actual NFHS interpretation that solves this apparent conundrum?

No. There is no NFHS Interpretation that solves this real conundrum.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 18, 2015, 07:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
No. There is no NFHS Interpretation that solves this real conundrum.



MTD, Sr.

Agree, though I do like bob jenkins's way of breaking it down. In the absence of any clear guidance, it certainly works for me and it fits the few case play interpretations we do have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 18, 2015, 08:49am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
A)
or
B)
or
C)


Are we going by unofficial consensus on this issue, or is there an actual NFHS interpretation that solves this apparent conundrum?
B) and C) are really the same thing.

And, there's really no conflict -- although there is an interp that some don't like.

FWIW, NCAAW has the book T's as being separate (that is, both are enforced, shoot FTs at each end,...) -- and some are arguing that *that* interp is "wrong" and it should be treated as a double foul.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Technical fouls to start the game Sharpshooternes Basketball 22 Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:03am
I gave 4 Technical Fouls in just one game jmaellis Basketball 25 Mon Oct 27, 2008 04:57pm
How many technical fouls is a team allowed before the official would call the game a RavishingRev Basketball 4 Mon Oct 27, 2008 03:46pm
Delay of Game Technical Fouls ajs8207 Basketball 15 Tue Jun 10, 2008 07:12pm
Technical Fouls Before Start of Game nails131 Basketball 12 Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:39pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:11am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1