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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 10, 2015, 02:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I'll consult my previous rules and case books for the exact year the dubious case play appeared.

Meanwhile, I will disagree with your defense of the ruling in that Case Play. Let me put forth my understanding of how this should work. Since we agree with the premise that a team being entitled to a throw-in or FT constitutes team possession for CE purposes, this should make sense to you.

At the time of the error, which is incorrectly permitting the ball to remain live following the first FT, Team A is entitled to another FT. That means that when Team B rebounds the miss, team possession has now switched from Team A (entitled to FT) to Team B (grabbed the rebound). Therefore, the POI should be used to resume and Team B should be awarded a throw-in near the division line.
I agree with Nevada's conclusion and thinking. It should have been A's ball for the FT, but the error lead to B getting the ball. That is a change of possession.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 10, 2015, 06:29pm
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Is not the POI, the moment in play, at which the error is discovered/acknowledged, rather than the error itself? Therefore, in the case of a merited free throw that was not awarded, but now must be awarded, the POI is subsequent to that action, and requires/allows that the free throw be shot w/o players along the lane, and the time from when the error occurred to the moment the error was discovered, is not to be restored. Thus, play will resume at the POI, which is the awarded throw-in.
This seems to be the thought process of the Rules/Case play author(s).
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 10, 2015, 09:13pm
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I'm a little foggy on this, but I don't think POI comes into play on CEs. There is "the spot where play was stopped to correct the error" (or some such words), but that's not necessarily POI (as defined). Maybe I'm just too tired.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 10, 2015, 09:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm a little foggy on this, but I don't think POI comes into play on CEs. There is "the spot where play was stopped to correct the error" (or some such words), but that's not necessarily POI (as defined). Maybe I'm just too tired.
The rule does say that if an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the POI to rectify the error unless it involves awarding a merited FT and there has been no change in team possession since the error was made....

Bob, do you know how long that first case play has been in the case book? thx

Last edited by BigCat; Wed Nov 11, 2015 at 10:57am.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 10, 2015, 11:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm a little foggy on this, but I don't think POI comes into play on CEs. There is "the spot where play was stopped to correct the error" (or some such words), but that's not necessarily POI (as defined). Maybe I'm just too tired.
The language was changed when the NFHS adopted the POI rule and added its definition in Rule 4. That was about ten years ago.
Before that the choice of words was not referring to the definition of POI, but merely normal English language.

2004-05 wording:
". . . If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point at which it was interrupted to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was made, in which case play shall resume as after any free-throw attempt(s)."

2007-08 wording:
". . . If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point of
interruption to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free
throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was
made, in which case play shall resume as after any free-throw attempt(s)."
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 11, 2015, 08:47am
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Thank you both for the correction.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 11, 2015, 10:48am
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I'm giving myself a headache. Let me ask anybody this…

The correctable error rule says we go to the POI unless it involves awarding a merited FT and there has been no change of team possession since the error. if no change of team possession then resume it like any other FT attempt.

The case play 2.10.1A, we all know, says team B securing the rebound and passing to a teammate constitutes no change in team possession. You go back and shoot the free throw with lane spaces occupied.

Let's say the play goes further and team A fouls team B after the teammate catches the pass. lets say team B is in the bonus. so in this example the ball is not going to go to team A. (they are not entitled to throw in or FT). The ball is going to stay with team B. Has there been a "change of team possession." If there hasn't, I'm not supposed to go to the POI? But if i don't i can't deal with the foul by A?

I know what I would do…I would have A shoot their extra FT with lane spaces cleared and then line all players up for B 1 and 1 and play on. If the case play is correct about not being a change in possession how do i get to my result. (which is going to POI in the end)
maybe I'm having a complete and total brain cramp...
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 11, 2015, 11:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I'm giving myself a headache. Let me ask anybody this…



The correctable error rule says we go to the POI unless it involves awarding a merited FT and there has been no change of team possession since the error. if no change of team possession then resume it like any other FT attempt.



The case play 2.10.1A, we all know, says team B securing the rebound and passing to a teammate constitutes no change in team possession. You go back and shoot the free throw with lane spaces occupied.



Let's say the play goes further and team A fouls team B after the teammate catches the pass. lets say team B is in the bonus. so in this example the ball is not going to go to team A. (they are not entitled to throw in or FT). The ball is going to stay with team B. Has there been a "change of team possession." If there hasn't, I'm not supposed to go to the POI? But if i don't i can't deal with the foul by A?



I know what I would do…I would have A shoot their extra FT with lane spaces cleared and then line all players up for B 1 and 1 and play on. If the case play is correct about not being a change in possession how do i get to my result. (which is going to POI in the end)

maybe I'm having a complete and total brain cramp...

I hate to admit it, but I would do the same thing. I don't have rules justification to cancel or ignore the foul on A, so in the spirit of administering penalties in the order in which the fouls occurred, I'd feel obliged to do it this way.

Makes me second guess what I'd do if B were NOT in the bonus.

Would be interesting to get an official NFHS interp on this.


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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 11, 2015, 12:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
I hate to admit it, but I would do the same thing. I don't have rules justification to cancel or ignore the foul on A, so in the spirit of administering penalties in the order in which the fouls occurred, I'd feel obliged to do it this way.

Makes me second guess what I'd do if B were NOT in the bonus.

Would be interesting to get an official NFHS interp on this.


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I don't think 2.10.1A can survive.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 12, 2015, 12:12am
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You are both having difficulty with the administration because the Case Play is just wrong. If you accept that, then you won't have an issue.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 12, 2015, 12:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You are both having difficulty with the administration because the Case Play is just wrong. If you accept that, then you won't have an issue.
i was reluctant to say a play that had been in the case book for a number of years was wrong. Playing it out further as i did this morning proves to me that it is wrong. i wanted to see if i was missing anything.

i dont see any way to save it.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 12, 2015, 06:46am
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No change in possession

A1 is entitled to 2 free throws, after the first free throw the ball remains live. A4 rebounds and is fouled by B4. Team A is in the bonus.

Since there has been no change in possession. How is this administered?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 12, 2015, 08:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gslefeb View Post
A1 is entitled to 2 free throws, after the first free throw the ball remains live. A4 rebounds and is fouled by B4. Team A is in the bonus.

Since there has been no change in possession. How is this administered?
That's a lot simpler. Shoot A1's free throw with the lane clear, then line everybody up for A4's one-and-one.

Of course, me, I'll say I was blowing my whistle to kill the play b/c we had another free throw to shoot.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 12, 2015, 10:53am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
That's a lot simpler. Shoot A1's free throw with the lane clear, then line everybody up for A4's one-and-one.

Of course, me, I'll say I was blowing my whistle to kill the play b/c we had another free throw to shoot.
The next question is how do we get here under the rules, to using the POI, when the rule says we dont use it if there isnt a change of possession?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 12, 2015, 01:42pm
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Is there anything about ignoring the foul unless it's flagrant?

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