"Change of possession" correctable error

[BryanV21]

Rule 4-41-2

"A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into the team's own basket."

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

But anyway, like BigCat said, the error doesn't occur until Team B gains control and the clock is started by an official. Therefore, Team B was in control from the time the error occurred until the error was found. So no change of possession occurred... shoot the 2nd FT, and go from there.

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Rule 4-41-2

"A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into the team's own basket."

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

Disagree.

4-20-1

“A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicircle and behind the free-throw line.”

So, there is some discrepancy between 4-41-2, which says that "a try for field goal...two or three points..." and 4-20-1. But it's pretty clear to me that the intent of the rule is that team control ends upon the release of the free throw.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

This is not correct.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by SC Official

This is not correct.

Would you mind telling me why? I'm not saying my interpretation is right, but just saying I'm wrong is a little messed up.

See bballref.

Speaking of which, I'm not the first person to point out a discrepancy between a rules apparent intent and what is actually written. If I have to explain a call to somebody I'm more likely to go by what is actually written, not what I think they meant to write.

And another poster (sorry for being lazy and not going back to see who) pointed out that this case play has been around for a long time. Not to say it would be the first time the NFHS has botched something, but there's a decent chance it's correct as written.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Would you mind telling me why? I'm not saying my interpretation is right, but just saying I'm wrong is a little messed up.

For the reason that bballref said. That and there is no basis for the idea that team control continues on a free throw once the shooter releases the ball.

I understand that there is some discrepancy, but the idea of team control continuing until the end of the free throw is unheard of (or, at least I have never heard it).

The wording of 4-20-1 implies, at least in my opinion, that a free throw is to be treated the same as a two- or three-point try when it comes to the termination of team control.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by SC Official

For the reason that bballref said. That and there is no basis for the idea that team control continues on a free throw once the shooter releases the ball.

I understand that there is some discrepancy, but the idea of team control continuing until the end of the free throw is unheard of (or, at least I have never heard it).

The wording of 4-20-1 implies, at least in my opinion, that a free throw is to be treated the same as a two- or three-point try when it comes to the termination of team control.

Sorry, but I don't like simply being told I'm wrong, or what I said isn't right. I'm not a little kid whose mom or dad decides to tell me something is the way it is "because I told you so". And if you were just backing up what bballref had to say, then why not say that?

And I gave you a basis for the idea that team control continues through the free throw. You can go back and check it out. Take a few minutes to do so and come back here.

Anyway...

Why would 4-41-2 be so specific about the number of points a try is worth? Why not leave the number of points out of it and simply say "A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score"?

Either 4-20-1 or 4-41-2 is written incorrectly. So was 4-41-2 needlessly precise about the number of points, or should 4-20-1 not use the words "try for goal", thus causing this confusion?

Personally, I go with the one that was more precise.

[SC Official]

I gave you a rules basis for why I believed you are incorrect. If you don't want to accept that, I really don't care. But don't act like I just told you that you were wrong without telling you my opinion why.

You said that "A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter." Yes, this is correct. But then you went on to say "and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control."

You equated the end of the free throw with being the end of team control. The end of the free throw and the end of team control are not the same thing.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

...
Why would 4-41-2 be so specific about the number of points a try is worth? ....

It is specific about the number of points a FIELD GOAL is worth. You've decided to arbitrarily leave out the words FIELD GOAL, then are chastising people who say your interpretation is wrong.

A try can be a field goal or a free throw.

A field goal is worth either 2 or 3 points

A free throw is worth 1 point.

[mcdanrd]

In this scenario the ball never became live. Rule 4.13.6 states that neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball. Rule 6.7.2a states that the ball remains dead on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

...

Either 4-20-1 or 4-41-2 is written incorrectly. So was 4-41-2 needlessly precise about the number of points, or should 4-20-1 not use the words "try for goal", thus causing this confusion?

Personally, I go with the one that was more precise.

Sorry, but I don't like people telling me there is confusion when there isn't any. A free throw is a TRY FOR GOAL, and that is clearly stated in 4-20 Art. 1

Team Control ends when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. Basketball 101. No confusion for me at all.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Sorry, but I don't like people telling me there is confusion when there isn't any. A free throw is a TRY FOR GOAL, and that is clearly stated in 4-20 Art. 1

Team Control ends when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. Basketball 101. No confusion for me at all.

Cute.

However, confusion on the part of one person does not mean confusion on the part of all people. I guess you forget part of the reason this message board exists, which is to help those that may need it.

And I think I laid out the reason for that confusion quite well. Or did you choose to skip my bringing up the fact that 4-41 does not include the words "free throw"?

I never said I was right and anybody was wrong. I gave reasons why I thought I was right. If anybody took that to mean I was calling them fools, or wrong... sorry.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

Already covered is the fact that there is no team control when a FT is in the air. However, there is one more thing here that is also incorrect. There is one more reason a ends that you haven't listed and it is among the more common reasons.

Rule 4-20 ART. 3 . . . The free throw ends when the try is successful, when it is certain the try will not be successful, when the try touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead.

So, the FT ends when it comes off the rim, not later as you imply.

As for the rules support for the fact that team control ends when the FT is released:

Rule 4-37 ART. 1 . . . Rebounding is an attempt by any player to secure possession of the ball following a try or tap for goal. In a rebounding situation there is no player or team control.

The rule you reference about the try and control only referring to 2 or 3 point shots and not FTs is just wrong. It says a "FIELD" goal is an attempt to score 2 or 3 points, not that a try is an attempt to score 2 or 3. Rule 4-12 says that team control continues until a try or tap is in flight without regard to whether it is a FT or a FG.

Then there is the definition of a FT:

Rule 4-20 ART. 1 . . . A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicircle and behind the free-throw line.