rules question from my pickup game

[schwza]

Hi all,

A rules question came up during my pickup game. Player A starts to shoot, and Player B hits the ball while it's still in A's hands, and while following through there is some moderate contact from B's hand onto A's arm. It definitely would have been a foul if there had not been the initial block, but can the block mean that it's not a foul? Thanks in advance.

[Valley Man]

So in other words ... if you block a shot you can create illegal contact because you blocked the shot??

[Hugh Refner]

I got confused when I saw the title of this thread and the words "rules" and "pickup game" in the same sentence.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

So in other words ... if you block a shot you can create illegal contact because you blocked the shot??

Same section as when there is a "loose" ball, you can just jump on top of someone to get to the ball. Rule 11 for NFHS, Rule 12 for NCAAM

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

So in other words ... if you block a shot you can create illegal contact because you blocked the shot??

Contact that may have been illegal with the ball in hand may no longer be illegal after the ball is gone.

Did the subsequent contact hinder normal offensive movements by the offense? The phrase "moderate contact" gives me pause to wonder.

[Pantherdreams]

Way to many factors here to give you a clear answer.

Basically if the ball has been blocked the prevailing theory would then require you determine if the contact was incidental or not.

Beyond determing how much contact, whether it leads to rough play and if the player was impeded or disadvantaged (See how easy it is) . . .

1) We don't know if the shooter is in the air. While the ruling might be the same often the idea/concept of protecting an airborne shooter vs player in the act of shooting vs regular non shooting player are all very different for not only officials but those paying officials. If I block a set shot and bump you or hit your arm on the way down, might in theory be the same as if I did it while you were still 8 inches off the floor. Often they are not call/seen the same.

2) Granted this is pick up game but in the context of a real game how frequently its happening both ways or previous interactions between players could weigh into the decision.

3) Also you say moderate contact. That descriptor is not definitive or universal. You will often see in discussions here one officials marginal is beyond another's threshold for impactful. What we deem as exccessive is often debated as well. Moderate doesn't mean anything beyond what it means to you.

[schwza]

Let me try to give more information...

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Way to many factors here to give you a clear answer.

Basically if the ball has been blocked the prevailing theory would then require you determine if the contact was incidental or not.

Beyond determing how much contact, whether it leads to rough play and if the player was impeded or disadvantaged (See how easy it is) . . .

There has basically never been any rough play in this game, today included. The shooter was not impeded from getting the rebound, although if there had just been the block and no bump on the arm, his odds of making the shot would probably be higher (the ball still got up near the rim).

BTW, the defender didn't knock the ball out of the shooter's hands. Think about a shooter who has the ball smacked while he's getting ready to shoot, but he can still shoot it.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

1) We don't know if the shooter is in the air. While the ruling might be the same often the idea/concept of protecting an airborne shooter vs player in the act of shooting vs regular non shooting player are all very different for not only officials but those paying officials. If I block a set shot and bump you or hit your arm on the way down, might in theory be the same as if I did it while you were still 8 inches off the floor. Often they are not call/seen the same.

Set shot. We don't jump like we used to.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

2) Granted this is pick up game but in the context of a real game how frequently its happening both ways or previous interactions between players could weigh into the decision.

Mellow. Stakes pretty much couldn't be any lower.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

3) Also you say moderate contact. That descriptor is not definitive or universal. You will often see in discussions here one officials marginal is beyond another's threshold for impactful. What we deem as exccessive is often debated as well. Moderate doesn't mean anything beyond what it means to you.

Definitely not excessive. Think a small bump on the arm after hitting the ball. It's the kind of contact that we probably wouldn't call on a layup, but we would call on a midrange shot like this one (which is why it led to a discussion).

If he got the ball first I am considering most contact after that incidental unless Flagrant 1 or 2.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

If he got the ball first I am considering most contact after that incidental ...

Even if the shooter is still airborne?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by schwza

Let me try to give more information...



There has basically never been any rough play in this game, today included. The shooter was not impeded from getting the rebound, although if there had just been the block and no bump on the arm, his odds of making the shot would probably be higher (the ball still got up near the rim).

BTW, the defender didn't knock the ball out of the shooter's hands. Think about a shooter who has the ball smacked while he's getting ready to shoot, but he can still shoot it.



Set shot. We don't jump like we used to.



Mellow. Stakes pretty much couldn't be any lower.



Definitely not excessive. Think a small bump on the arm after hitting the ball. It's the kind of contact that we probably wouldn't call on a layup, but we would call on a midrange shot like this one (which is why it led to a discussion).

Based on your new information I would have a foul. I was assuming the ball came loose.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Based on your new information I would have a foul. I was assuming the ball came loose.

I agree. If the shooter is still able to shoot after the contact on the ball by the defender, the defender will be held to the same standard as if he had never contacted the ball. If the defender knocks the ball lose, it will take a lot more contact to turn it into a foul.

[rsl]

Originally Posted by schwza

... although if there had just been the block and no bump on the arm, his odds of making the shot would probably be higher (the ball still got up near the rim).

Sure sounds like there was a disadvantage to the shooter.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Hugh Refner

I got confused when I saw the title of this thread and the words "rules" and "pickup game" in the same sentence.

It confused me too! I kept thinking people play pick up games of basketball and drive pickup trucks, meaning that he had one huge pickup truck.

MTD, Sr.

[Hugh Refner]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It confused me too! I kept thinking people play pick up games of basketball and drive pickup trucks, meaning that he had one huge pickup truck.

MTD, Sr.

Like the one on the right?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Hugh Refner

Like the one on the right?

Hugh:

Yes, that is exactly what I was visualizing.

MTD, Sr.