Illegal Screen Study #2

[Freddy]

The comments and analyses from those who critiqued the previously posted possible illegal screen were really very insightful and enabling. What the official at C viewed in that video said about it will be posted in that thread shortly.

Here's another one that was, coincidentally, in the same gym involving the same official. The question for this clip, slightly different than the last one, is this: What did which official miss and, more importantly, why?

What Did Which Official Miss, and Why?

[Camron Rust]

Yes, it is an illegal screen. Unlike the other play where an argument can be made for not calling it since it was away from the play, this one should be called. The screener never got into a position for a legal screen and was no where near giving proper time/distance. It freed up the dribbler, thus the advantage was realized.

The C missed the call because he didn't pick up the screener in time. He was focused off ball too long with the play coming into his lap.

That said, there is no reason the T shouldn't be able to make that call.

Maybe both were expecting the other to make that call.

[JetMetFan]

1. Illegal

2. Who missed what? It's in the C's primary and it's his call. Odd that he missed it because he'd just (correctly) no-called a screening situation involving a different defender in Black, then the play moves towards him with B#3 guarding A#25. I would say C tried to accept the play involving the BH/D too soon instead of staying with the competitive match-up in his PCA.

3. T could have made the call but my guess is he saw B#3's right forearm come out and started to think, "Should I call him for and arm-bar?" (IMO, yes). While considering that play the screening situation may have surprised him and he may have thought, "Gee, I hope the C gets that one because I'm not sure."

Oh...not that he was involved in the call but L should have been in rotation while the ball was moving tableside. Right when the arm-bar dilemma takes place there are two players in L's PCA. Both of them are defenders. Meantime, he's still in the "A" position and is showing little sign of moving. Even if he's in close down he may not get to the "C" position fast enough to force C out to T but it might have helped.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

1. Illegal

2. Who missed what? It's in the C's primary and it's his call. Odd that he missed it because he'd just (correctly) no-called a screening situation involving a different defender in Black, then the play moves towards him with B#3 guarding A#25. I would say C tried to accept the play involving the BH/D too soon instead of staying with the competitive match-up in his PCA.

3. T could have made the call but my guess is he saw B#3's right forearm come out and started to think, "Should I call him for and arm-bar?" (IMO, yes). While considering that play the screening situation may have surprised him and he may have thought, "Gee, I hope the C gets that one because I'm not sure."

Oh...not that he was involved in the call but L should have been in rotation while the ball was moving tableside. Right when the arm-bar dilemma takes place there are two players in L's PCA. Both of them are defenders. Meantime, he's still in the "A" position and is showing little sign of moving. Even if he's in close down he may not get to the "C" position fast enough to force C out to T but it might have helped.

The Lead rotating shouldn't force the C to step out. The C was too high in the first place. If he had been where he was supposed to be he would have seen the illegal screen.

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[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The Lead rotating shouldn't force the C to step out. The C was too high in the first place. If he had been where he was supposed to be he would have seen the illegal screen.

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Eh, not really. FTLE is just the home position. A step or two above or below to see a play properly is okay. IMO he was where he needed to be to see the contact since it took place near the top of the 3-point arc. He just didn't put a whistle on it.

[BigCat]

I think C is too high the entire time also. However, I dont think it has anything to do with him not calling the foul. Sometimes guys see it and just dont blow the whistle. I think the screen is set a few feet past the lane line extended area. Clearly C area. I dont want T calling it from where he is at. He could have stepped out and over to keep a count and then perhaps gotten it. Ultimately, there's nothing really else happening in C area. He has to make this call.

Refereeing's hard. It happens...

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

1. Illegal

2. Who missed what? It's in the C's primary and it's his call. Odd that he missed it because he'd just (correctly) no-called a screening situation involving a different defender in Black, then the play moves towards him with B#3 guarding A#25. I would say C tried to accept the play involving the BH/D too soon instead of staying with the competitive match-up in his PCA.

3. T could have made the call but my guess is he saw B#3's right forearm come out and started to think, "Should I call him for and arm-bar?" (IMO, yes). While considering that play the screening situation may have surprised him and he may have thought, "Gee, I hope the C gets that one because I'm not sure."

Oh...not that he was involved in the call but L should have been in rotation while the ball was moving tableside. Right when the arm-bar dilemma takes place there are two players in L's PCA. Both of them are defenders. Meantime, he's still in the "A" position and is showing little sign of moving. Even if he's in close down he may not get to the "C" position fast enough to force C out to T but it might have helped.

im as tight as they come on hand check/arm bar/arm in hip but i dont call it here. it was on but off pretty quick....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Eh, not really. FTLE is just the home position. A step or two above or below to see a play properly is okay. IMO he was where he needed to be to see the contact since it took place near the top of the 3-point arc. He just didn't put a whistle on it.

He was moving when the contact occurred. There was no reason for the high C on that play. If he had stayed home position he sees the screener coming before the contact.

Stay at home in the C, don't look for reason to move towards the division line.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I dont want T calling it from where he is at. He could have stepped out and over to keep a count and then perhaps gotten it. Ultimately, there's nothing really else happening in C area. He has to make this call.

Refereeing's hard. It happens...

He did have a continuing count as the dribbler/ball went across the court.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

He did have a continuing count as the dribbler/ball went across the court.

yes, i know he had a count. He was too close to the sideline to make a foul call way over there IMO.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

He was moving when the contact occurred. There was no reason for the high C on that play. If he had stayed home position he sees the screener coming before the contact.

Stay at home in the C, don't look for reason to move towards the division line.

He just had another screening situation 2 seconds before that called for some movement towards the division line. If he didn't move for that one he wouldn't have been able to see between the players. If he's at FTLE for the second one he's going to be looking at the screener's back and may not be able to determine if there was contact. As a general rule, fouls take place in the space between players. Moving back towards the home position sure didn't help him see that space in this case.

Originally Posted by BigCat

I dont want T calling it from where he is at. He could have stepped out and over to keep a count and then perhaps gotten it. Ultimately, there's nothing really else happening in C area. He has to make this call.

As Camron pointed out, the T kept his count going. That's even more reason that the T could've gotten it a bit late. The count meant he was still engaged in the play.

As to "nothing else happening" in the C's area, I disagree. At the moment that contact takes place there are 8 players in the C's PCA. One is in the L's PCA and the other is in the T's PCA, though he still has the closely-guarded count going. That's a lot more than nothing, which is why I commented earlier on the lack of rotation by the L.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

He just had another screening situation 2 seconds before that called for some movement towards the division line. If he didn't move for that one he wouldn't have been able to see between the players. If he's at FTLE for the second one he's going to be looking at the screener's back and may not be able to determine if there was contact. As a general rule, fouls take place in the space between players. Moving back towards the home position sure didn't help him see that space in this case.




As Camron pointed out, the T kept his count going. That's even more reason that the T could've gotten it a bit late. The count meant he was still engaged in the play.

As to "nothing else happening" in the C's area, I disagree. At the moment that contact takes place there are 8 players in the C's PCA. One is in the L's PCA and the other is in the T's PCA, though he still has the closely-guarded count going. That's a lot more than nothing, which is why I commented earlier on the lack of rotation by the L.

I know T had a count and had a reason to be looking in the other area. I would have like to have seen him take a few steps toward half line and over away from his sideline while counting. Then if he has to make the call late he isnt so far away.

I didnt analyze the video in depth etc but I recall an offensive player simply standing in the dead corner. There are some other players standing and the 4 involved on the ball in his area. I think the C needs to know when the ball enters his area and take it. I agree lead could have helped him.

In this play the foul was obvious enough for the T to help but it wont always be that clear. Sometimes the C has the only view of contact. What may have happened, as said before by someone, was C continues to look off ball because he knows T has a count or thinks T will call it. thx

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

He just had another screening situation 2 seconds before that called for some movement towards the division line. If he didn't move for that one he wouldn't have been able to see between the players. If he's at FTLE for the second one he's going to be looking at the screener's back and may not be able to determine if there was contact. As a general rule, fouls take place in the space between players. Moving back towards the home position sure didn't help him see that space in this case.

....

Not only is he too high, but he was also on to the court for no reason. If he stays at home base at C, all he has to do is take one step up along the sideline as the screener comes up to maintain an angle to see the contract.

His sloppy positioning at the C led to all the problems on this play. The Trail is still on ball and doesn't need help yet with that aspect of the play. The C had absolutely no reason at all to be in the position he was in when the video begins.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

As to "nothing else happening" in the C's area, I disagree. At the moment that contact takes place there are 8 players in the C's PCA. One is in the L's PCA and the other is in the T's PCA, though he still has the closely-guarded count going. That's a lot more than nothing, which is why I commented earlier on the lack of rotation by the L.

I didn't look at the video, so I cannot comment on this particular play. However, as a general rule, just because there are players, even a significant number of them, in a particular area does not mean there is anything going on. Perhaps, none of the 8 players were involved in a competitive matchup.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I didn't look at the video, so I cannot comment on this particular play. However, as a general rule, just because there are players, even a significant number of them, in a particular area does not mean there is anything going on. Perhaps, none of the 8 players were involved in a competitive matchup.

You are correct, there were no active matchups for him to cover. His focus should have been on A2 as it was obvious he was prepping to set a screen.