Charge or Block (Video)

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

In a girls game I get why it might be called but I don't think I'd call it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In my experience this is something that mostly would get called at a girls game... And this is usually why officials that work a lot of girls struggle in boys games.

Both of these statements are completely puzzling to me. I work both boys and girls HS...always have. The original clip looks like a no-call to me. Yet I'm curious how you two think OFFICIALS might call it differently based on whether it is a boys or girls game...or one would somehow struggle doing boys versus girls. It's not 1955 any more.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Both of these statements are completely puzzling to me. I work both boys and girls HS...always have. The original clip looks like a no-call to me. Yet I'm curious how you two think OFFICIALS might call it differently based on whether it is a boys or girls game...or one would somehow struggle doing boys versus girls. It's not 1955 any more.

That is a call I see made often in girls basketball that hinders the opportunity for those very same officials on the boys side (of course talking about my area and state). Where I live we are not required to be assigned both genders. We might have an assignor that assigns the boy's side of the conference and another assignor that assigns the girl's side of the conference. I can tell that if you call that foul with players that are in a pretty good talent pool for boys basketball, that will get you run out of the gym faster than prostitute in church. And I doubt a play that was filmed in HD is something as an example of what is taking place in 1955. I think we see a foul was called in this very play, which seems pretty typical. Unless you work a lot of D1 quality players like I did at the beginning of July in an AAU tournament, this seems to be an expected call by many in girls basketball.

Peace

[Rich]

I still work games on both sides.

I do not change how I call the game from the boys side to the girls side. I take every play at face value and try to apply a patient whistle to all plays. If a female player can't play through the same amount of contact, I'm not calling a foul "cause it's a girls game" -- I'm calling a foul because on that play it's a foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Both of these statements are completely puzzling to me. I work both boys and girls HS...always have. The original clip looks like a no-call to me. Yet I'm curious how you two think OFFICIALS might call it differently based on whether it is a boys or girls game...or one would somehow struggle doing boys versus girls. It's not 1955 any more.

Around here, in general, better officials work HS boys games more than they work HS girls games.

So the statement may apply to the quality of official working a girls game as compared to a boys game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Around, in general, better officials work HS boys games more than they work HS girls games.

So the statement may apply to the quality of official working a girls game as compared to a boys game.

That is pretty much the case in most of our state in my experience. My second year I have over 40 varsity girls games and in many cases was not assigned a boys games because I was not considered experienced or good enough. And on the flip side I had about 15 varsity boys games that same year. I only got the boys games for the most part because of my partner and they believed in his judgment. That all took place in rural Illinois. When I moved to the bigger area or part of the state, I had to do a lot more to prove I could work varsity boys games. And the varsity boys games were much better talent and the varsity I did in rural Illinois was not seen as good or the quality as the varsity that I currently work now.

And 19 years later or so, I still see officials not get a shot at boys varsity unless they have much more experience or have the top classification to even get a low level varsity game. Girls basketball is often for those who either are earlier in their career or at the end of their career. There are officials that can work a lot of girls basketball and are very good, but unfortunately those are not the norm. The college officials often will not work a lot of girls basketball as their schedule will not allow them to.

Peace

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Around, in general, better officials work HS boys games more than they work HS girls games.

So the statement may apply to the quality of official working a girls game as compared to a boys game.

I'm living proof that BNR's comment is true in general in our neck of the woods. I'm on the the backside of my officiating career. I've done one BV game in each of the past two seasons. I'm okay with it. I work the games that I'm assigned. However like Rich, I call fouls based on the play not the gender. In this play, I have a play-on.

[Rich]

It's all local. Here many assigners will not use officials if they won't work both genders -- or if they work only boys they will get the same number of boys games as a crew who works both (I may get 5 boys and 5 girls -- that crew will only get the 4-5 boys games).

Those who think that people that work girls games are lesser officials can keep on thinking that. I'm quite secure in my abilities and what happens in other states means nothing in my little career.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Rich

...

Those who think that people that work girls games are lesser officials can keep on thinking that. I'm quite secure in my abilities and what happens in other states means nothing in my little career.

It has nothing to do with what people think or if officials are secure in their abilities. It has every thing to do with the quality of officials who get assigned Girls games. Saying the games are the same means nothing if assignors are putting their best officials on Boys games, because, then in fact the games are not being called the same.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It has nothing to do with what people think or if officials are secure in their abilities. It has every thing to do with the quality of officials who get assigned Girls games. Saying the games are the same means nothing if assignors are putting their best officials on Boys games, because, then in fact the games are not being called the same.

Around here, they're just games for the most part.

I assign the varsity games for 22 schools (21 boys, 20 girls programs) and I do my assigning about 18 months in advance. I think I have 4 crews who only work boys games and I give them each a few dates, but I don't go out of my way to load them up. The exception is one of our college guys who takes dates and then takes young officials (even people I ask him to take) to mentor -- I'd give him whatever he wanted.

For me availability, dependability, and willingness to travel more than in a small radius trump ability every day. At the end of the day, this is high school basketball, not big business.

There isn't a single person I use who I would use on the girls side but not the boys side. Some (mostly females) work only girls games by choice. But I'd use them in boys games, too.

Some may disagree with that, but that's OK. I have 348 games to assign and not everyone will be happy, although I try my best.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It has nothing to do with what people think or if officials are secure in their abilities. It has every thing to do with the quality of officials who get assigned Girls games. Saying the games are the same means nothing if assignors are putting their best officials on Boys games, because, then in fact the games are not being called the same.

Then that's on assignor for their thought process. I hope you can appreciate as someone who works NCAAW games at the II, III and Juco level as well as BV and GV it ticks me off when I see assignors, officials or whoever dumb down the quality of the officiating. I think we've all seen that the quality of officiating can have an effect on how the game is played. It bothers me even more when I see the game - or the officiating - knocked in a forum like this. I appreciate both - in HS and below - because I work both and it's by choice because I have to be certified separately.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It has nothing to do with what people think or if officials are secure in their abilities. It has every thing to do with the quality of officials who get assigned Girls games. Saying the games are the same means nothing if assignors are putting their best officials on Boys games, because, then in fact the games are not being called the same.

I can tell you that in my area, the girls coaches would raise hell if that was put into practice (and they would be justified in doing so). There are a couple that have state championship trophies in their cases and they wield clout with our assignor(s).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's all local. Here many assigners will not use officials if they won't work both genders -- or if they work only boys they will get the same number of boys games as a crew who works both (I may get 5 boys and 5 girls -- that crew will only get the 4-5 boys games).

Those who think that people that work girls games are lesser officials can keep on thinking that. I'm quite secure in my abilities and what happens in other states means nothing in my little career.

I totally agree it is all local. But if officials around here want to work boys basketball, they likely have to make a choice. And you are going to make a choice for a couple or reasons. Boy's assignors are not giving what they see as girls officials games for the most part. They do not see the officials that work girls basketball as overall the same quality. And most of all there are playoffs that are staggered. Girls start first by lower class and then bigger classes. So if you are working boys basketball, that would cut into your season or have to give back games if you are assigned any playoff on the girls side. And you cannot work that deep in the playoffs in both genders. You will have to decide on some level which you will focus on. And at the end of the day, the assignors want to assign people that are perceived to be the best as well. And if you are working the playoffs or get a chance to work a State Final, you are likely in the conversation of being one of the best. This is no different than what we were talking about what you put on your resume'. If you are not doing a lot of boys basketball, you might not ever get a real shot unless the assignor makes an exception for you as an official.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I totally agree it is all local. But if officials around here want to work boys basketball, they likely have to make a choice. And you are going to make a choice for a couple or reasons. Boy's assignors are not giving what they see as girls officials games for the most part. They do not see the officials that work girls basketball as overall the same quality. And most of all there are playoffs that are staggered. Girls start first by lower class and then bigger classes. So if you are working boys basketball, that would cut into your season or have to give back games if you are assigned any playoff on the girls side. And you cannot work that deep in the playoffs in both genders. You will have to decide on some level which you will focus on. And at the end of the day, the assignors want to assign people that are perceived to be the best as well. And if you are working the playoffs or get a chance to work a State Final, you are likely in the conversation of being one of the best. This is no different than what we were talking about what you put on your resume'. If you are not doing a lot of boys basketball, you might not ever get a real shot unless the assignor makes an exception for you as an official.

Peace

Like you said, it's local.

The state assigns both here. Nobody will work state in both genders, but a lot of officials work deep in both genders. It's not that unusual for a crew to work state on one side and a sectional or sectional final (state quarterfinal) on the other side.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Rich

Like you said, it's local.

The state assigns both here. Nobody will work state in both genders, but a lot of officials work deep in both genders. It's not that unusual for a crew to work state on one side and a sectional or sectional final (state quarterfinal) on the other side.

Here, at the state level, gender is set aside and all games are treated as equal. But I know for a fact (as in, from the mouths of assignors) that is not how it is done at the association level. There is still a strong good ole boy mentality in this state when it comes to gender issues.

For me, I don't like working girls HS games because there is such a disparity in quality of play. And my assignors do not assign me Girls games, except for holiday tournaments. I have never requested such treatment, but since it is in line with what I desire, I don't say anything about it. I'm good with working Boys games exclusively. In the off-season, I enjoy very much working high level Girls AAU games because of the quality of play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Like you said, it's local.

The state assigns both here. Nobody will work state in both genders, but a lot of officials work deep in both genders. It's not that unusual for a crew to work state on one side and a sectional or sectional final (state quarterfinal) on the other side.

Well that is almost impossible here. Assignors or schools assign every regular season game. And right or wrong, they are the gatekeepers of what you will be eligible for in the post season. So if the IHSA wants to assign someone both, they would have to have good numbers or opportunities to be seen on that level.

I equate our system as what happens in college basketball. If the conferences or assignors are not going to make a habit of assigning an official to both genders, then you will never even be considered for both NCAA tournaments.

Peace