More Courtesy Runner Issues

[harmbu]

This happened in an NFHS game tonight and I wanted to see if it was properly applied:

#23 pinch hit for #4 who was the catcher. #23 singles and the offensive coach puts in a courtesy runner. The defensive coach says that this cannot happen because #23 is a pinch hitter and not the catcher. Is he correct?

Later in the game the BU tells the coach that if the DH is batting for the pitcher or catcher a courtesy runner can be used for the DH. Is he correct?

[charliej47]

As #23 has not played defense, do not allow a CR.

As the DH is not the pitcher or the catcher, do not allow a CR.

[bob jenkins]

I agree with Charlie on these.

Note that in the first play, #4 (F2 the previous half-inning) could be re-entered, and then a CR could be used.

[harmbu]

I agree on both points but habe not been able to find how to prove it in the rule book. Can anyone hell there?

[john5396]

Substitute S1 bats for F1. Does S1 have to complete pitching an at bat during the next 1/2 inning. Of course not. Projected substitues are not allowed. players who substitute while a team is on offense do not have a defensive position till the team takes the field on defense. At that time S1 or another player becomes F1.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by harmbu

I agree on both points but habe not been able to find how to prove it in the rule book. Can anyone hell there?

1) 3.1.1M

2) Rule CR1 specifically saysF1 or F2 -- not DH

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Note that in the first play, #4 (F2 the previous half-inning) could be re-entered, and then a CR could be used.

That's allowed in FED baseball? It's not allowed in FED softball. In FED softball, the pitcher or catcher from the previous half-inning has to be the player who bats and gets on base in order for a CR to be legal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Manny A

That's allowed in FED baseball?

Yes.

[charliej47]

Originally Posted by Manny A

That's allowed in FED baseball? It's not allowed in FED softball. In FED softball, the pitcher or catcher from the previous half-inning has to be the player who bats and gets on base in order for a CR to be legal.

Please site rule. AS my books are not available.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by charliej47

Please site rule. AS my books are not available.

In baseball, I think it's 2005 interp, situation 2. That's from memory, but it's come up so often ....

You can search on this forum for it.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In baseball, I think it's 2005 interp, situation 2. That's from memory, but it's come up so often ....

You can search on this forum for it.

Yep, good memory!
SITUATION 2: In the home half of the third inning, Team A’s catcher is legally pinch-hit for by S1. S1 draws a walk, and the coach legally re-enters the catcher. Now, with the catcher on first base, the home team’s coach requests and uses a courtesy runner for the catcher. RULING: This is a legal use of the courtesy runner. (Speed-Up Rules)

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by harmbu

I agree on both points but habe not been able to find how to prove it in the rule book. Can anyone hell there?

Courtesy runners are for the pitcher and catcher, not John who is the pitcher or Jim who is the catcher. Therefore when Bob come in to PR he is neither a pitcher nor a catcher so he cannot be CR for. The CR is a positional substitution. If a player comes in on offense as a substitute for the pitcher or catcher they are only a pinch hitter and/or pinch runner and have not yet become the pitcher or catcher. That is exactly how it should be explained.

[harmbu]

That is exactly how I explained it but the umpires told me I was wrong and the substitute was now the catcher. This is a problem I have had in the past. I can show the umpires exactly what the rule book says but the "interpret" it to mean what they want it to mean. They even told me they contacted their interpreter and that he confirmed that they were correct. I have no way of knowing that they did or did not contact him but what am I to do if he says something in black and white in the rule book is wrong?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by harmbu

That is exactly how I explained it but the umpires told me I was wrong and the substitute was now the catcher. This is a problem I have had in the past. I can show the umpires exactly what the rule book says but the "interpret" it to mean what they want it to mean. They even told me they contacted their interpreter and that he confirmed that they were correct. I have no way of knowing that they did or did not contact him but what am I to do if he says something in black and white in the rule book is wrong?

Protest, if you can.

That being said, until someone showed me that interpretation, I had the same opinion, because I was keeping the intent of the rule in mind.

[jicecone]

I disagree.

Case play 3.1.1 Sit M does not cover this situation. and the interp presented is different than the situation presented in thread No. 1. All sit 2 said was the way the coach utilized the sub and catcher was legal. It does not say that the starting catcher has to come back in the game in order for there to be CR.

Having said that, where in the rule book or Case book does it say a (Pinch hitter)/ Substitute does not become a catcher or pitcher when substituting for that player on offense.

Just give a rule reference and not your opinion, and this whole thing is solved.