More Courtesy Runner Issues

[harmbu]

I agree on both points but habe not been able to find how to prove it in the rule book. Can anyone hell there?

[john5396]

Substitute S1 bats for F1. Does S1 have to complete pitching an at bat during the next 1/2 inning. Of course not. Projected substitues are not allowed. players who substitute while a team is on offense do not have a defensive position till the team takes the field on defense. At that time S1 or another player becomes F1.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by harmbu

I agree on both points but habe not been able to find how to prove it in the rule book. Can anyone hell there?

1) 3.1.1M

2) Rule CR1 specifically saysF1 or F2 -- not DH

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by harmbu

I agree on both points but habe not been able to find how to prove it in the rule book. Can anyone hell there?

Courtesy runners are for the pitcher and catcher, not John who is the pitcher or Jim who is the catcher. Therefore when Bob come in to PR he is neither a pitcher nor a catcher so he cannot be CR for. The CR is a positional substitution. If a player comes in on offense as a substitute for the pitcher or catcher they are only a pinch hitter and/or pinch runner and have not yet become the pitcher or catcher. That is exactly how it should be explained.

[harmbu]

That is exactly how I explained it but the umpires told me I was wrong and the substitute was now the catcher. This is a problem I have had in the past. I can show the umpires exactly what the rule book says but the "interpret" it to mean what they want it to mean. They even told me they contacted their interpreter and that he confirmed that they were correct. I have no way of knowing that they did or did not contact him but what am I to do if he says something in black and white in the rule book is wrong?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by harmbu

That is exactly how I explained it but the umpires told me I was wrong and the substitute was now the catcher. This is a problem I have had in the past. I can show the umpires exactly what the rule book says but the "interpret" it to mean what they want it to mean. They even told me they contacted their interpreter and that he confirmed that they were correct. I have no way of knowing that they did or did not contact him but what am I to do if he says something in black and white in the rule book is wrong?

Protest, if you can.

That being said, until someone showed me that interpretation, I had the same opinion, because I was keeping the intent of the rule in mind.

[jicecone]

I disagree.

Case play 3.1.1 Sit M does not cover this situation. and the interp presented is different than the situation presented in thread No. 1. All sit 2 said was the way the coach utilized the sub and catcher was legal. It does not say that the starting catcher has to come back in the game in order for there to be CR.

Having said that, where in the rule book or Case book does it say a (Pinch hitter)/ Substitute does not become a catcher or pitcher when substituting for that player on offense.

Just give a rule reference and not your opinion, and this whole thing is solved.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by jicecone

I disagree.

Case play 3.1.1 Sit M does not cover this situation. and the interp presented is different than the situation presented in thread No. 1. All sit 2 said was the way the coach utilized the sub and catcher was legal. It does not say that the starting catcher has to come back in the game in order for there to be CR.

Having said that, where in the rule book or Case book does it say a (Pinch hitter)/ Substitute does not become a catcher or pitcher when substituting for that player on offense.

Just give a rule reference and not your opinion, and this whole thing is solved.

If he is a sustitute on offense he is a PH, not a catcher till he actually catches. You can't project a sub otherwise you could say that Bob on second is going to be my catcher in the next half inning and then CR from him. If they go on defense and then Bob isn't a catcher you now have a problem.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

If he is a sustitute on offense he is a PH, not a catcher till he actually catches. You can't project a sub otherwise you could say that Bob on second is going to be my catcher in the next half inning and then CR from him. If they go on defense and then Bob isn't a catcher you now have a problem.

Just give a rule reference and not your opinion, and this whole thing is solved.

Show me the definition of a Pinch Hitter.

REFERENCE PLEASE such as:

NFHS 2-36-1 "A substitute is a player that is eligible to replace another player already in the line-up." or

3-1-1.d "a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and :.........d. a batter takes his place in the batter's box"

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jicecone

I disagree.

Case play 3.1.1 Sit M does not cover this situation.

It's 3.1.1N. My bad on the typo.

It includes ".. a courtesy runner would only be allowed to run for the player who was the catcher on defense before coming to bat"

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's 3.1.1N. My bad on the typo.

It includes ".. a courtesy runner would only be allowed to run for the player who was the catcher on defense before coming to bat"

Thanks Bob, I was able to research this over the weekend and found that both the NFHS Rules and Case book do a bad job of clearly defining a "projected substitution".

A simple sentence like:

"Offensive changes must be reported when the team is on offense and defensive changes must be reported when a team is on defense." would help.

Thanks for the clarification.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by harmbu

That is exactly how I explained it but the umpires told me I was wrong and the substitute was now the catcher. This is a problem I have had in the past. I can show the umpires exactly what the rule book says but the "interpret" it to mean what they want it to mean. They even told me they contacted their interpreter and that he confirmed that they were correct. I have no way of knowing that they did or did not contact him but what am I to do if he says something in black and white in the rule book is wrong?

Contact the interpreter / assigner yourself.

Raise it to the state.

Accept that it's the interpretation in your area and use it yourself.