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Old Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:09pm
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Bush League but it almost happened last night

Varsity baseball...5th inning runners at 1st and 2nd, coach makes visit to the mound and replaces pitcher. 3rd base coach calls runners over for a conference during the warm-up pitches. When the warm-ups are completed, runners return to 2nd and 3rd. Plate puts the ball in play and the defensive coach comes screaming out of the dugout that the players were on 1st and 2nd prior to the trip to the mound.

Time is called, crew discusses and runners are returned to 1st and 2nd. So question is this...what is the call if the pitch is (for arguments sake) made, and hit for a double with the runners on 2nd and 3rd scoring before anyone realizes that they went to the wrong bases?
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:57pm
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Sounds like a couple ejections are in order.
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Old Wed Mar 19, 2014, 08:45pm
DG DG is offline
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Yes, two umpires who are clueless.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 07:03am
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I'm pretty sure there was a case play / interp several (or many) years ago where R1 and R2 switched places after the conference.

the ruling was that R1 was out for passing a runner, R2 was out fro running the bases in reverse and the coach was ejected.

I'd look for a similar situation here.

If I missed it during the game (hah!), I'd have an ejection, and a report. I'd hope the state would call it a forfeit, and add a suspension.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 07:31am
CT1 CT1 is offline
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Score one run, place runners on 2nd & 3rd. Eject defensive HC. Circle the wagons.

OR

Place runners on 1st & 2nd & replay. Eject offensive HC. Circle the wagons.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 08:15am
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I can't see any case play letting you do ANYTHING here after a pitch is thrown. Then again, if the umpires were clueless enough to let this happen - they likely have no idea either A) where the runners were with the pitch was hit for a double or B) where they should have been before that pitch.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 09:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm pretty sure there was a case play / interp several (or many) years ago where R1 and R2 switched places after the conference.

the ruling was that R1 was out for passing a runner, R2 was out fro running the bases in reverse and the coach was ejected.
I don't think there was an actual official interpretation to that end, and if there was, I find it incongruous with the rules. If you go with the whole "passing a runner" BS, then you have to call BR out every time he hits a foul fly ball and rounds first and R1.

My solution is toss the relevant offenders, put their subs where they should go, and play.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 10:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post

My solution is toss the relevant offenders, put their subs where they should go, and play.
By relevant offenders, I would think that includes the HC. Hard to believe he did not play a part in this.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 11:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm pretty sure there was a case play / interp several (or many) years ago where R1 and R2 switched places after the conference.

the ruling was that R1 was out for passing a runner, R2 was out fro running the bases in reverse and the coach was ejected.

I'd look for a similar situation here.

If I missed it during the game (hah!), I'd have an ejection, and a report. I'd hope the state would call it a forfeit, and add a suspension.
FWIW, there's an actual case play on this in FED Softball:

8.6.4 SITUATION D: With R1 at second base, R2 at first base and a 1-1 count on B3, the offensive coach requests time to speak with the runners and batter. When the players return to their bases, R1 and R2 have switched places. After the next pitch to B3, the defensive coach asks for time and informs the umpire that the runners have occupied the wrong bases. RULING: Both players are guilty of base running infractions. The umpire shall rule both R1 and R2 out for their actions. If, in the umpire's judgment, the act was deliberate, both players and the coach could be ejected for unsporting behavior. (8-3-6; 10-2-3f)

So "over there", it doesn't matter that a pitch had been delivered. It's still an infraction that the umpires can address. I suppose that if the batter had put the ball in play, the two guilty runners would still be called out, and the ejections would be warranted.

Not sure why there isn't a similar case play on the baseball side. Maybe it was in there at one point.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 11:34am
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From a previous thread on this subject:

Quote:
From my 2008 BRD section 427:

After a time out where all runners huddled, the umpire discovers that R1 switched places wit R2. Both runners are out - R2 for running the bases in reverse order; R1 for passing a preceding runner [Website, 2003, #3]
Now if we can only find the 2003 interps (I'm sure I have them at home)
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 11:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
From a previous thread on this subject:

Quote:
From my 2008 BRD section 427:

After a time out where all runners huddled, the umpire discovers that R1 switched places wit R2. Both runners are out - R2 for running the bases in reverse order; R1 for passing a preceding runner [Website, 2003, #3]
Now if we can only find the 2003 interps (I'm sure I have them at home)
I'm not too keen on using the base-running infractions of running in reverse order and passing a preceding runner to come up with the solution to this scenario. For one, these infractions actually took place when the ball was dead. The runners didn't do what the ruling says they did when play was live, so how can you rule as such?

Also, the ruling doesn't address other potential scenarios like the OP. There is no base-running infraction when runners start at first and second before the huddle, and then occupy second and third afterward.

If the interpreters really want to treat these shenanigans as egregious violations to the spirit of the game that warrant everyone involved ruled out and ejected, then they should simply say that, and not try to justify the rulings by using extremely liberal (and somewhat nonsensical) interpretations of the base-running rules.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 01:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
From a previous thread on this subject:



Now if we can only find the 2003 interps (I'm sure I have them at home)
Courtesy ofstevethe ump website:


SITUATION 3: During a time-out, with runners on first and second bases, R2 switches places with R1 because he is faster and plans on stealing third base when the game resumes. RULING: When detected, the umpire will award two outs to the defense, warn the coach and eject R2 and R1. One out is assessed for passing a runner and another out is for running the bases in reverse order. This infraction may be corrected during a dead ball when detected by the umpire, defensive team or offensive team. (3-3-1g, 8-4-2m, n)
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 01:06pm
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Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir View Post
By relevant offenders, I would think that includes the HC. Hard to believe he did not play a part in this.
Anybody and everybody who had a part.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 01:26pm
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
If the interpreters really want to treat these shenanigans as egregious violations to the spirit of the game that warrant everyone involved ruled out and ejected, then they should simply say that, and not try to justify the rulings by using extremely liberal (and somewhat nonsensical) interpretations of the base-running rules.
Like they did in softball. And I agree.

2 outs and eject the coach seems fair here. Assuming the umpires recognize that it happened or can verify it somehow.
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Old Thu Mar 20, 2014, 01:52pm
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I remember this being brought up a year or so ago. Ever since then I been waiting for this to happen in one of my games. I look for it, so it will be hard to get this one over on me. And as soon as play is live again, both runners are out and the coach is going to the bus. IMO the coach would be held liable. Ejecting the players for doing what a coach told them to do is extreme. If the players did it themselves, the coach should still be held responsible.JMO
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