When is a Runner "Between" Bases?

[Manny A]

I was going to respond to a question posted by tommyleo in the "interesting run down situation" discussion. But, alas, someone closed the thread.

Here's what tommyleo wrote:

I'd still like your opinions on my theory presented earlier. Reyes clearly rolled just behind third base. At that point, isn't he considered to be no longer between third and home? If so, then hasn't Lawrie passed Reyes?

Given the actual location of Reyes--he's sitting on his butt in foul territory adjacent to third base--I don't consider that Lawrie is past him. The only way Lawrie could pass Reyes here is if he takes a step toward home off the bag.

Think of it this way: If Reyes beat the throw to third on a force play, and he slid past the bag and ended up in the same location he's in after this rundown, would you uphold a force play appeal? Probably not, because you would say he's beyond third base here. Well, he's also beyond third base when he ended up here in the rundown.

Now, if Reyes had gone past the bag down the left field line, then you might have an argument that Lawrie passed him, since he's now closer to home plate than Reyes. But that's not what happened.

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[MD Longhorn]

The basepaths form a square. At each vertex, there's a 90 degree area bounded by the lines from the square, extended outward - anyone in that area is "on" the base wrt passing. If you're not within that 90 degree area, then your position on the basepaths can be determined relative to which line you're closest to by drawing a line from you directly to (and perpendicular to) that baseline.

Reyes was in that area - to pass him, the succeeding runner would have had to go beyond 3rd base.

IMHO, of course. There are others that simply draw a line between the center of the square (approximately the rubber) to the player, treating the basepaths as a circle. Even in that case, Reyes was not COMPLETELY passed by the succeeding runner ... and to be passed, you must be wholely and completely passed.

[tommyleo]

I just noticed this thread. Keep in mind that Reyes was not adjacent to third base. He was sitting on his butt, just behind third base. That's why I contend that the ump may have decided that Lawrie had passed Reyes: Lawrie was on the bag while Reyes was behind the bag.

[tommyleo]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The basepaths form a square. At each vertex, there's a 90 degree area bounded by the lines from the square, extended outward - anyone in that area is "on" the base wrt passing.

If I am understanding your explanation here, perhaps the ump did indeed make the correct call because he ruled that Reyes was still "on" third base due to Reyes' position on the field (just beyond and just behind third base -- which would be in that "area" you detailed). So when Lawrie was standing on third base and tagged, Lawrie was correctly ruled out even though Reyes was not in contact with the bag?

Is your interpretation of that specific area ("bounded by the lines from the square, extended outward") detailed in any rule book? Or is it a reasonable interpretation of existing rules to fit this kind of situation?

Thanks.

[bob jenkins]

The umpire called the trailing runner out based on his perception at the time that both runners were ON the base when the trailing runner was tagged. He then called out the lead runner for being tagged while he was (then) of the base.

Upon further review, he kicked the call. :shrug:

[tommyleo]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The umpire called the trailing runner out based on his perception at the time that both runners were ON the base when the trailing runner was tagged. He then called out the lead runner for being tagged while he was (then) of the base.

Do you know that for sure? I had been looking for an explanation of the call from the ump (to see if he kicked it or had a legitimate rationale), but found nothing. If you found an explanation from the ump or the league, please share. Thanks.

[bob jenkins]

I haven't talked to the umpire himself, of course, but I believe the sources I have.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by tommyleo

I just noticed this thread. Keep in mind that Reyes was not adjacent to third base. He was sitting on his butt, just behind third base. That's why I contend that the ump may have decided that Lawrie had passed Reyes: Lawrie was on the bag while Reyes was behind the bag.

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by "just behind" third base. From my watching the video, Reyes' entire body did not go past third toward the leftfield corner. That would be where I consider that Lawrie had passed him, because Lawrie would then be physically closer to home plate than Reyes.

[tommyleo]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by "just behind" third base. From my watching the video, Reyes' entire body did not go past third toward the leftfield corner. That would be where I consider that Lawrie had passed him, because Lawrie would then be physically closer to home plate than Reyes.

I posted a screenshot from the video, above. Is the photo appearing on your screen? In that photo, Reyes' butt is behind third base and his feet are off the ground. So it looks to me that Reyes is just behind third base while Lawrie is on third base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tommyleo

If I am understanding your explanation here, perhaps the ump did indeed make the correct call because he ruled that Reyes was still "on" third base due to Reyes' position on the field (just beyond and just behind third base -- which would be in that "area" you detailed). So when Lawrie was standing on third base and tagged, Lawrie was correctly ruled out even though Reyes was not in contact with the bag?

Is your interpretation of that specific area ("bounded by the lines from the square, extended outward") detailed in any rule book? Or is it a reasonable interpretation of existing rules to fit this kind of situation?

Thanks.

First... don't mix the passing rules and the two runners on a base rule - they are not meant to go together.

Second - I've heard equally knowledgeable and equally talented clinicians preach both of the methods I've described. I don't think either is universal by any stretch. Neither are detailed in the rulebook - the rulebook merely says "passes" or "past" and clarifies with "completely".

The scenario we're discussing happens so very rarely it's not worth clarifying.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tommyleo

I posted a screenshot from the video, above. Is the photo appearing on your screen? In that photo, Reyes' butt is behind third base and his feet are off the ground. So it looks to me that Reyes is just behind third base while Lawrie is on third base.

What Manny's saying is that Reyes's feet, while not contacting the bag, are not BEYOND the bag either --- they are above it. So using EITHER theory (and either baseline), Lawrie has not COMPLETELY passed Reyes.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by tommyleo

I posted a screenshot from the video, above. Is the photo appearing on your screen? In that photo, Reyes' butt is behind third base and his feet are off the ground. So it looks to me that Reyes is just behind third base while Lawrie is on third base.

I couldn't see the screenshot on my work computer. But now that I'm not at work (thanks to Congress for giving me the day off by not being able to prevent the Government shutdown), I see your picture. And it's even more obvious to me that Lawrie isn't past Reyes.

Heck, Reyes' feet are still on the home-plate side of the bag, and you would see that fact even more clearly if the picture were taken directly in line with the second-to-third baseline. And Lawrie is mostly on the back side of third. For Lawrie to be past Reyes, he would have to be a step or two off the bag toward home.

What's also pretty clear to me is how U3's vision of Reyes feet is being blocked by Lawrie, and that he's staring at the glove during the tag.