Time Play

[BBlom]

I have spent way too much time trying to find this answer, so I am hoping a few people can help out.

Scenario:
Two out, runners on second (R2) and third (R3). Batter hits groundball to shortstop, who tags out R2 trying to advance to third. R3 crosses home plate before the tag; however, the batter does not make it to first before the tag.

Does the run count?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by BBlom

I have spent way too much time trying to find this answer, so I am hoping a few people can help out.

Scenario:
Two out, runners on second (R2) and third (R3). Batter hits groundball to shortstop, who tags out R2 trying to advance to third. R3 crosses home plate before the tag; however, the batter does not make it to first before the tag.

Does the run count?

Run scores. R2 was not forced to third so this is a timing play

-Josh

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by BBlom

I have spent way too much time trying to find this answer, so I am hoping a few people can help out.

Scenario:
Two out, runners on second (R2) and third (R3). Batter hits groundball to shortstop, who tags out R2 trying to advance to third. R3 crosses home plate before the tag; however, the batter does not make it to first before the tag.

Does the run count?

Assuming the batter did touch first so that there is no option of an appeal play there, yes it does. It really doesn't matter if the batter touches first before the tag of R2 as to whether the run counts or not.

But if the shortstop had thrown to first, there would be no question of the run scoring or not. So the coach will probably have a chat with him.


Rita

[BBlom]

I appreciate the replies!

Still seems a little off to me. Consider this scenario: Bases loaded, two outs, and the batter is walked. If batter does not touch first base (assuming no fan interference or other crazy stuff), the run does not count - i.e., the batter must successfully become a runner prior to the third out. I know this is not exactly the same scenario, but (at least in my little mind) the logic seems somewhat applicable.

In my scenario above, since the batter has not successfully avoided becoming the third out (i.e., theoretically, he may still have been thrown out by the time the last out occurred), the run should not count regardless of how the out occurred.

Again, I appreciate the replies! Just goes to show how little I really know about a game I have spent my entire life involved with.

[MD Longhorn]

Think about it this way though ... you don't know, at the moment the 3rd out was made, whether the batter-runner would have been safe at first... but once that 3rd out is made, they have no reason to continue running, so you'll never really know.

The rules make it easy for us in just about every case. If the 3rd out is made on a batter runner before they reach first, or on a forced runner, no runs can score. In any other case, runs that happen before the 3rd out count. (And a polite request for the umpire lawyers to not confuse the situations with extraneous info that doesn't apply to OP's situation! Please!?!?! )

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by BBlom

I appreciate the replies!

Still seems a little off to me. Consider this scenario: Bases loaded, two outs, and the batter is walked. If batter does not touch first base (assuming no fan interference or other crazy stuff), the run does not count - i.e., the batter must successfully become a runner prior to the third out. I know this is not exactly the same scenario, but (at least in my little mind) the logic seems somewhat applicable.

In my scenario above, since the batter has not successfully avoided becoming the third out (i.e., theoretically, he may still have been thrown out by the time the last out occurred), the run should not count regardless of how the out occurred.

Again, I appreciate the replies! Just goes to show how little I really know about a game I have spent my entire life involved with.

You are over-thinking this. It doesn't matter that the batter/runner could have been put out at first - what matters is the 3rd out wasn't made by the batter/runner (or a forced runner). Therefore, it is a time play.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

You are over-thinking this. It doesn't matter that the batter/runner could have been put out at first - what matters is the 3rd out wasn't made by the batter/runner (or a forced runner). Therefore, it is a time play.

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by BBlom

I appreciate the replies!

Still seems a little off to me. Consider this scenario: Bases loaded, two outs, and the batter is walked. If batter does not touch first base (assuming no fan interference or other crazy stuff), the run does not count - i.e., the batter must successfully become a runner prior to the third out. I know this is not exactly the same scenario, but (at least in my little mind) the logic seems somewhat applicable.

In my scenario above, since the batter has not successfully avoided becoming the third out (i.e., theoretically, he may still have been thrown out by the time the last out occurred), the run should not count regardless of how the out occurred.

Again, I appreciate the replies! Just goes to show how little I really know about a game I have spent my entire life involved with.

It's up to the defense to get the batter out at first base.

You aren't the first lifelong baseball lover who doesn't know how it is as opposed to the logic they want it to be. Umpires go with how it is, not how the logic goes.

My son (a coach) and I get into some interesting discussions!

Rita

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by umpjim

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

In roughly 45 years, I have seen only 2 teams who knew that this was possible. Most teams stop after they record the 3rd out.

[DG]

I can't go as many years as Ozzy, but I can't recall an F6 who tagged the runner in this situation, they just throw the ball to 1b for the 3rd out that prevents any runs from scoring. Seems strange that R3 would score before the tag if it did happen though.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by umpjim

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Because the out on the B/R becomes the 3rd out.

[Jdotmozy]

How are you getting a put out in your second scenario BBlom? If I'm assuming nothing crazy happens on a bases loaded walk?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by umpjim

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Do they have to appeal that fourth out, or can they just throw there and assume the umpire will be paying attention (since the third out technically ended the inning)?

JJ

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by JJ

Do they have to appeal that fourth out, or can they just throw there and assume the umpire will be paying attention (since the third out technically ended the inning)?

JJ

It's not an appeal. It's a replacement out!

In the rules, the advantageous fourth out is only mentioned as resulting from the appeal of a baserunning error. Various interpretations stretch that to include an out made on the B/R before he reaches 1st base (you would think it would also apply to a forced runner but none of the interps addresses that). It doesn't make sense to me (or Carl), but that's the way it is.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by umpjim

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Not true. 4th out appeals for missing a base are honored... but there's no 4th out to be had in the play described here.