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BBlom Mon Jun 10, 2013 04:20pm

Time Play
 
I have spent way too much time trying to find this answer, so I am hoping a few people can help out.

Scenario:
Two out, runners on second (R2) and third (R3). Batter hits groundball to shortstop, who tags out R2 trying to advance to third. R3 crosses home plate before the tag; however, the batter does not make it to first before the tag.

Does the run count?

jdmara Mon Jun 10, 2013 04:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBlom (Post 897062)
I have spent way too much time trying to find this answer, so I am hoping a few people can help out.

Scenario:
Two out, runners on second (R2) and third (R3). Batter hits groundball to shortstop, who tags out R2 trying to advance to third. R3 crosses home plate before the tag; however, the batter does not make it to first before the tag.

Does the run count?

Run scores. R2 was not forced to third so this is a timing play

-Josh

Rita C Mon Jun 10, 2013 04:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBlom (Post 897062)
I have spent way too much time trying to find this answer, so I am hoping a few people can help out.

Scenario:
Two out, runners on second (R2) and third (R3). Batter hits groundball to shortstop, who tags out R2 trying to advance to third. R3 crosses home plate before the tag; however, the batter does not make it to first before the tag.

Does the run count?

Assuming the batter did touch first so that there is no option of an appeal play there, yes it does. It really doesn't matter if the batter touches first before the tag of R2 as to whether the run counts or not.

But if the shortstop had thrown to first, there would be no question of the run scoring or not. So the coach will probably have a chat with him.


Rita

BBlom Mon Jun 10, 2013 04:44pm

Thanks!
 
I appreciate the replies!

Still seems a little off to me. Consider this scenario: Bases loaded, two outs, and the batter is walked. If batter does not touch first base (assuming no fan interference or other crazy stuff), the run does not count - i.e., the batter must successfully become a runner prior to the third out. I know this is not exactly the same scenario, but (at least in my little mind) the logic seems somewhat applicable.

In my scenario above, since the batter has not successfully avoided becoming the third out (i.e., theoretically, he may still have been thrown out by the time the last out occurred), the run should not count regardless of how the out occurred.

Again, I appreciate the replies! Just goes to show how little I really know about a game I have spent my entire life involved with.

MD Longhorn Mon Jun 10, 2013 04:49pm

Think about it this way though ... you don't know, at the moment the 3rd out was made, whether the batter-runner would have been safe at first... but once that 3rd out is made, they have no reason to continue running, so you'll never really know.

The rules make it easy for us in just about every case. If the 3rd out is made on a batter runner before they reach first, or on a forced runner, no runs can score. In any other case, runs that happen before the 3rd out count. (And a polite request for the umpire lawyers to not confuse the situations with extraneous info that doesn't apply to OP's situation! Please!?!?! :) )

dash_riprock Mon Jun 10, 2013 05:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBlom (Post 897066)
I appreciate the replies!

Still seems a little off to me. Consider this scenario: Bases loaded, two outs, and the batter is walked. If batter does not touch first base (assuming no fan interference or other crazy stuff), the run does not count - i.e., the batter must successfully become a runner prior to the third out. I know this is not exactly the same scenario, but (at least in my little mind) the logic seems somewhat applicable.

In my scenario above, since the batter has not successfully avoided becoming the third out (i.e., theoretically, he may still have been thrown out by the time the last out occurred), the run should not count regardless of how the out occurred.

Again, I appreciate the replies! Just goes to show how little I really know about a game I have spent my entire life involved with.

You are over-thinking this. It doesn't matter that the batter/runner could have been put out at first - what matters is the 3rd out wasn't made by the batter/runner (or a forced runner). Therefore, it is a time play.

umpjim Mon Jun 10, 2013 05:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 897070)
You are over-thinking this. It doesn't matter that the batter/runner could have been put out at first - what matters is the 3rd out wasn't made by the batter/runner (or a forced runner). Therefore, it is a time play.

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Rita C Mon Jun 10, 2013 06:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBlom (Post 897066)
I appreciate the replies!

Still seems a little off to me. Consider this scenario: Bases loaded, two outs, and the batter is walked. If batter does not touch first base (assuming no fan interference or other crazy stuff), the run does not count - i.e., the batter must successfully become a runner prior to the third out. I know this is not exactly the same scenario, but (at least in my little mind) the logic seems somewhat applicable.

In my scenario above, since the batter has not successfully avoided becoming the third out (i.e., theoretically, he may still have been thrown out by the time the last out occurred), the run should not count regardless of how the out occurred.

Again, I appreciate the replies! Just goes to show how little I really know about a game I have spent my entire life involved with.

It's up to the defense to get the batter out at first base.

You aren't the first lifelong baseball lover who doesn't know how it is as opposed to the logic they want it to be. Umpires go with how it is, not how the logic goes.

My son (a coach) and I get into some interesting discussions!

Rita

ozzy6900 Mon Jun 10, 2013 06:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 897072)
But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

In roughly 45 years, I have seen only 2 teams who knew that this was possible. Most teams stop after they record the 3rd out.

DG Mon Jun 10, 2013 07:09pm

I can't go as many years as Ozzy, but I can't recall an F6 who tagged the runner in this situation, they just throw the ball to 1b for the 3rd out that prevents any runs from scoring. Seems strange that R3 would score before the tag if it did happen though.

dash_riprock Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 897072)
But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Because the out on the B/R becomes the 3rd out.

Jdotmozy Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:13am

How are you getting a put out in your second scenario BBlom? If I'm assuming nothing crazy happens on a bases loaded walk?

JJ Tue Jun 11, 2013 07:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 897072)
But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Do they have to appeal that fourth out, or can they just throw there and assume the umpire will be paying attention (since the third out technically ended the inning)?

JJ

dash_riprock Tue Jun 11, 2013 08:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ (Post 897111)
Do they have to appeal that fourth out, or can they just throw there and assume the umpire will be paying attention (since the third out technically ended the inning)?

JJ

It's not an appeal. It's a replacement out!

In the rules, the advantageous fourth out is only mentioned as resulting from the appeal of a baserunning error. Various interpretations stretch that to include an out made on the B/R before he reaches 1st base (you would think it would also apply to a forced runner but none of the interps addresses that). It doesn't make sense to me (or Carl), but that's the way it is.

MD Longhorn Tue Jun 11, 2013 09:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 897072)
But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Not true. 4th out appeals for missing a base are honored... but there's no 4th out to be had in the play described here.


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