Time Play

[BBlom]

I appreciate the replies!

Still seems a little off to me. Consider this scenario: Bases loaded, two outs, and the batter is walked. If batter does not touch first base (assuming no fan interference or other crazy stuff), the run does not count - i.e., the batter must successfully become a runner prior to the third out. I know this is not exactly the same scenario, but (at least in my little mind) the logic seems somewhat applicable.

In my scenario above, since the batter has not successfully avoided becoming the third out (i.e., theoretically, he may still have been thrown out by the time the last out occurred), the run should not count regardless of how the out occurred.

Again, I appreciate the replies! Just goes to show how little I really know about a game I have spent my entire life involved with.

[MD Longhorn]

Think about it this way though ... you don't know, at the moment the 3rd out was made, whether the batter-runner would have been safe at first... but once that 3rd out is made, they have no reason to continue running, so you'll never really know.

The rules make it easy for us in just about every case. If the 3rd out is made on a batter runner before they reach first, or on a forced runner, no runs can score. In any other case, runs that happen before the 3rd out count. (And a polite request for the umpire lawyers to not confuse the situations with extraneous info that doesn't apply to OP's situation! Please!?!?! )

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by BBlom

I appreciate the replies!

Still seems a little off to me. Consider this scenario: Bases loaded, two outs, and the batter is walked. If batter does not touch first base (assuming no fan interference or other crazy stuff), the run does not count - i.e., the batter must successfully become a runner prior to the third out. I know this is not exactly the same scenario, but (at least in my little mind) the logic seems somewhat applicable.

In my scenario above, since the batter has not successfully avoided becoming the third out (i.e., theoretically, he may still have been thrown out by the time the last out occurred), the run should not count regardless of how the out occurred.

Again, I appreciate the replies! Just goes to show how little I really know about a game I have spent my entire life involved with.

You are over-thinking this. It doesn't matter that the batter/runner could have been put out at first - what matters is the 3rd out wasn't made by the batter/runner (or a forced runner). Therefore, it is a time play.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

You are over-thinking this. It doesn't matter that the batter/runner could have been put out at first - what matters is the 3rd out wasn't made by the batter/runner (or a forced runner). Therefore, it is a time play.

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by umpjim

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

In roughly 45 years, I have seen only 2 teams who knew that this was possible. Most teams stop after they record the 3rd out.

[DG]

I can't go as many years as Ozzy, but I can't recall an F6 who tagged the runner in this situation, they just throw the ball to 1b for the 3rd out that prevents any runs from scoring. Seems strange that R3 would score before the tag if it did happen though.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by umpjim

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Because the out on the B/R becomes the 3rd out.

[Jdotmozy]

How are you getting a put out in your second scenario BBlom? If I'm assuming nothing crazy happens on a bases loaded walk?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by umpjim

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Do they have to appeal that fourth out, or can they just throw there and assume the umpire will be paying attention (since the third out technically ended the inning)?

JJ

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by JJ

Do they have to appeal that fourth out, or can they just throw there and assume the umpire will be paying attention (since the third out technically ended the inning)?

JJ

It's not an appeal. It's a replacement out!

In the rules, the advantageous fourth out is only mentioned as resulting from the appeal of a baserunning error. Various interpretations stretch that to include an out made on the B/R before he reaches 1st base (you would think it would also apply to a forced runner but none of the interps addresses that). It doesn't make sense to me (or Carl), but that's the way it is.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by umpjim

But if they tag the runner for the third out and throw to get the BR for the fourth out no run scores.

Not true. 4th out appeals for missing a base are honored... but there's no 4th out to be had in the play described here.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Not true. 4th out appeals for missing a base are honored... but there's no 4th out to be had in the play described here.

It is true (all codes). The D can still play on the B/R before he reaches 1st base, even after the third out.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

It is true (all codes). The D can still play on the B/R before he reaches 1st base, even after the third out.

I think MD Longhorn is correct now. The BRD referenced Hopkins, Fetchiet and Fitzpatrick in 2001 as agreeing to the interp which as you and Childress say, doesn't make sense.
My 2012 Wendelstedt Umpire manual reverses that interp and does not allow the BR to be put out if the defense played on somebody else for the third out. They say the defense had the opportunity to make the third at 1B out and was not vigilant.

Does MD Longhorn have other cites for this?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

It is true (all codes). The D can still play on the B/R before he reaches 1st base, even after the third out.

But the BR, having not yet reached first, is not required to continue running after the 3rd out is made elsewhere.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

But the BR, having not yet reached first, is not required to continue running after the 3rd out is made elsewhere.

You would think so - but that is contrary to three official rulings (FED, NCAA & OBR) that say the B/R can still be put out for the advantageous fourth out. Now umpjim says the Wendelstedt manual says otherwise.

Carl says he hopes this never happens in any of our (and his) games. I share his wish.