High school fake to 3rd play

[RPatrino]

The term "disengage" is really a misnomer. There is no physical way a pitcher can fake or make pick offs without physically disengaging the rubber. For the purposes of ruling on over throws out of play, we consider a pick off 'from the rubber' if the pitcher doesn't actually step backwards off the rubber, no? Any pick off where the pitcher stays in front of the rubber can be considered, 'from the rubber', at least for the purposes of pick-offs to first.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

The term "disengage" is really a misnomer. There is no physical way a pitcher can fake or make pick offs without physically disengaging the rubber. For the purposes of ruling on over throws out of play, we consider a pick off 'from the rubber' if the pitcher doesn't actually step backwards off the rubber, no? Any pick off where the pitcher stays in front of the rubber can be considered, 'from the rubber', at least for the purposes of pick-offs to first.

Not really, on the move in question, or really on any move where you start to throw toward 2nd or 3rd and don't actually throw... it doesn't matter which direction you "disengage" to (in fact, when failing to throw to third, you usually disengage toward third ... and definitely not "backward off the rubber") - you have disengaged. Normally - who cares... but should the throw back to first go out of play, it does matter.

[RPatrino]

Of course it matters, and that was my point. On the fake 3rd to 1st move, with the ball thrown out of play, you will award 1 base? Or 2?

On a straight pick off move, righty to first who steps back off the rubber and throws out of play, 1 or 2 bases?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Of course it matters, and that was my point. On the fake 3rd to 1st move, with the ball thrown out of play, you will award 1 base? Or 2?

Um ... depends on if they disengage. What exactly are you saying?

Sounded like you were saying that unless you step back first, you're not disengaging. That's what I was disagreeing with. This move can be done by disengaging TOWARD THIRD (your foot comes off) ... and in fact almost every time, it does. If you don't then throw to 1st, no balk. If you do and it goes out of play - 2 bases.

This move can also be done without disengaging - keeping your foot on the rubber. (I said earlier we don't really see this, other than on video ... but it's possible) If you don't step off the rubber - and then don't throw to first it's a balk ... and if the ball goes out of play, 1 base.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

On a straight pick off move, righty to first who steps back off the rubber and throws out of play, 1 or 2 bases?

Two bases.

[DG]

I missed this question on FED test this year. The question said "pivot" which I interpreted to mean did not disenagage and so I answered per previous (prior to this year rule change) OBR interp since I was not aware of a FED rule. I was not aware there was a FED case play that said he could do this.

But I also have never seen a pitcher make this move without coming off the rubber in his fake to 3b.

[Tim C]

"But I also have never seen a pitcher make this move without coming off the rubber in his fake to 3b."

DG:

You may have got to the root of this discussion.

The rule book contends that there is only ONE legal way to disengage the pitcher's plate, that is by 'stepping back'.

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by Tim C

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

What a silly riddle. When F1 came off the rubber on his fake to 3B he has disengaged from pitching requirements. When F1 is on the rubber/set he can:
1) continue engagement of his pitching duties and deliver a pitch;
2) step back off the rubber (disengage from his pitching duties);
3) step and throw/feint to make a play on a runner (disengaging from his pitching duties);
4) balk.

I did not know that in Fed, F1 could step towards 3B, not come off the rubber and then step and throw/feint to 1B legally. That might be the screwiest Fed rule CB play there is...good thing it never happens...knock on wood. The next (il)logical step in this Fed interp is after stepping towards 3B and not coming off the rubber, F1 can legally deliver a pitch. Please don't tell me that is true.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Tim C

DG:

You may have got to the root of this discussion.

The rule book contends that there is only ONE legal way to disengage the pitcher's plate, that is by 'stepping back'.

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Take it to the extreme: F1 fakes to third, R3 breaks, & F1 takes two steps, throws toward F5 and the ball goes into DBT. Does anyone think he has NOT disengaged? Does anyone think this should be only a one-base award?

But you already knew that.....

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Tim C

DG:

You may have got to the root of this discussion.

The rule book contends that there is only ONE legal way to disengage the pitcher's plate, that is by 'stepping back'.

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

Enquiring minds want to know.

I asked that question at a Jim Evans clinic a while ago and the answer was that it was a legal disengage. Thus a pitcher who steps legally in his feint to 2B or,in FED 3B, is now allowed to run at the runner.

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by Tim C

DG:


The rule book contends that there is only ONE legal way to disengage the pitcher's plate, that is by 'stepping back'.

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

Enquiring minds want to know.

This was the point of my earlier post.

If F1 fakes to third then wheels and FAKES to first, without first stepping BACK off the rubber to legally disengage, what do you have?