High school fake to 3rd play

[DG]

I missed this question on FED test this year. The question said "pivot" which I interpreted to mean did not disenagage and so I answered per previous (prior to this year rule change) OBR interp since I was not aware of a FED rule. I was not aware there was a FED case play that said he could do this.

But I also have never seen a pitcher make this move without coming off the rubber in his fake to 3b.

[Tim C]

"But I also have never seen a pitcher make this move without coming off the rubber in his fake to 3b."

DG:

You may have got to the root of this discussion.

The rule book contends that there is only ONE legal way to disengage the pitcher's plate, that is by 'stepping back'.

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by Tim C

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

What a silly riddle. When F1 came off the rubber on his fake to 3B he has disengaged from pitching requirements. When F1 is on the rubber/set he can:
1) continue engagement of his pitching duties and deliver a pitch;
2) step back off the rubber (disengage from his pitching duties);
3) step and throw/feint to make a play on a runner (disengaging from his pitching duties);
4) balk.

I did not know that in Fed, F1 could step towards 3B, not come off the rubber and then step and throw/feint to 1B legally. That might be the screwiest Fed rule CB play there is...good thing it never happens...knock on wood. The next (il)logical step in this Fed interp is after stepping towards 3B and not coming off the rubber, F1 can legally deliver a pitch. Please don't tell me that is true.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bluehair

I did not know that in Fed, F1 could step towards 3B, not come off the rubber and then step and throw/feint to 1B legally.

He can't (legally) feint to first if he stays on the rubber during this move -- feinting would be a balk.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bluehair

What a silly riddle. When F1 came off the rubber on his fake to 3B he has disengaged from pitching requirements. When F1 is on the rubber/set he can:
1) continue engagement of his pitching duties and deliver a pitch;
2) step back off the rubber (disengage from his pitching duties);
3) step and throw/feint to make a play on a runner (disengaging from his pitching duties);
4) balk.

I did not know that in Fed, F1 could step towards 3B, not come off the rubber and then step and throw/feint to 1B legally. That might be the screwiest Fed rule CB play there is...good thing it never happens...knock on wood. The next (il)logical step in this Fed interp is after stepping towards 3B and not coming off the rubber, F1 can legally deliver a pitch. Please don't tell me that is true.

Its been there as long as I have been doing HS ball. in fact it used to be in the Rule book but I only see it in the case book now .

Case Book 6.1.5. it specifically describes this op and the fact that it is one base award if the pitcher does not "step off" and two base award if the does "step off". And yes I remember seeing it once or twice by a pitcher that played for Garden City HS in Long Island. I specifically remember it because my partner called the balk for not stepping off and we had to correct the call.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Tim C

DG:

You may have got to the root of this discussion.

The rule book contends that there is only ONE legal way to disengage the pitcher's plate, that is by 'stepping back'.

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Take it to the extreme: F1 fakes to third, R3 breaks, & F1 takes two steps, throws toward F5 and the ball goes into DBT. Does anyone think he has NOT disengaged? Does anyone think this should be only a one-base award?

But you already knew that.....

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by CT1

Take it to the extreme: F1 fakes to third, R3 breaks, & F1 takes two steps, throws toward F5 and the ball goes into DBT. Does anyone think he has NOT disengaged? Does anyone think this should be only a one-base award?

But you already knew that.....

What would you call if it was a lefty pitcher doing the same thing to first. One base award. Why should it be different for the same move to 3rd.?

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Tim C

DG:

You may have got to the root of this discussion.

The rule book contends that there is only ONE legal way to disengage the pitcher's plate, that is by 'stepping back'.

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

Enquiring minds want to know.

I asked that question at a Jim Evans clinic a while ago and the answer was that it was a legal disengage. Thus a pitcher who steps legally in his feint to 2B or,in FED 3B, is now allowed to run at the runner.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by jicecone

What would you call if it was a lefty pitcher doing the same thing to first. One base award. Why should it be different for the same move to 3rd.?

I will recind this, the same move to first would be a balk because you have to throw over stepping from the plate, you don't at third.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CT1

Take it to the extreme: F1 fakes to third, R3 breaks, & F1 takes two steps, throws toward F5 and the ball goes into DBT. Does anyone think he has NOT disengaged? Does anyone think this should be only a one-base award?

But you already knew that.....

That's not the extreme. F1 fakes to 3rd and R3 breaks hard, F1 runs right at him, ending up involved in a 1-2-5-1-6-5-2-1 rundown at which point F1 throws it out of play. But... he didn't disengage, so 1 base for everyone and R1 who's already on 3rd base now, goes back to 2nd.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

He can't (legally) feint to first if he stays on the rubber during this move -- feinting would be a balk.

True...my error.

Originally Posted by jicecone

And yes I remember seeing it once or twice by a pitcher that played for Garden City HS in Long Island. I specifically remember it because my partner called the balk for not stepping off and we had to correct the call.

Correct the call and I'll bet, use all of your people handling skills in order to keep OHC from being EJ'd.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bluehair

True...my error.

Correct the call and I'll bet, use all of your people handling skills in order to keep OHC from being EJ'd.

Your right, but we are ALWAYS stuck in the middle. Getting Right and getting it in their favor is always two different things.

The season ended last night, time for playoffs and summer ball. You really do have to love doing this, or............... were all just crazy!!!

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by Tim C

DG:


The rule book contends that there is only ONE legal way to disengage the pitcher's plate, that is by 'stepping back'.

So when a pitcher fakes to third and "comes off" the pitcher's plate has he disengaged or should he be consider still on the plate?

Enquiring minds want to know.

This was the point of my earlier post.

If F1 fakes to third then wheels and FAKES to first, without first stepping BACK off the rubber to legally disengage, what do you have?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

This was the point of my earlier post.

If F1 fakes to third then wheels and FAKES to first, without first stepping BACK off the rubber to legally disengage, what do you have?

Nothing. Mostly because your assertion about stepping toward a base to feint or throw not being disengagement is incorrect.

[RPatrino]

I'm not sure that was my contention. I was merely extending the logical argument a bit further, and perhaps trying to stimulate some debate.

My actual contention is that most pick-offs or throws to a base by a pitcher are done while not in physical contact with the rubber. Now this pitcher may not have actually stepped back, off the rubber to 'legally' disengage, but they are nonetheless, not touching the rubber while throwing. To me, this is the key to determining the number of bases we award.

Thoughts?