NLCS blown base award

[DG]

Put me in with the "clear jump turn" crowd, in slo mo or regular speed.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DG

Put me in with the "clear jump turn" crowd, in slo mo or regular speed.

The only authoritative document I've ever seen referencing the jump-turn move is J/R. And in J/R, it is described as the pitcher jumping up with both feet simultaneously in the air, and turning the body towards the base so that when the pitcher lands, his free foot gains direction and distance to the base.

That's clearly not what happened here, at least per J/R's description of the move.

If there's another authoritative reference that describes other ways a pitcher may execute a jump-turn, I'd be interested to hear them, just for my education.

[Rich Ives]

To - No one in particular:

Sometimes I think that if your personal deity came and told you the answer and it wasn't what you expected you'd say the deity was wrong.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

To - No one in particular:

Sometimes I think that if your personal deity came and told you the answer and it wasn't what you expected you'd say the deity was wrong.

Completely agree.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

To - No one in particular:

Sometimes I think that if your personal deity came and told you the answer and it wasn't what you expected you'd say the deity was wrong.

You know what I find ironic, Rich, is that you'll notice in my dissertation I placed you in the unknown column. This is because prior to my dissertation, your only contribution to this thread was the above "deity" quote. It's now clear which side you're on, and thus, to whom your quote was directed. Do you find it disconcerting that your cornerstone has crumbled? You have a choice to step back and consider other views, even those that conflict with your long held beliefs, decide whether to change your views, or continue the righteous indignation you continue to display.

[Welpe]

Lapopez, do you have a point to this other than to provoke a response?

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Lapopez, do you have a point to this other than to provoke a response?

You're right, I'm done.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

You're right, I'm done.

"... by moving his pivot foot in the direction of third base..."

You don't SEEM done.

Seriously ... is there any further point to this, or are you just trying to agitate your audience?

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by Manny A

The only authoritative document I've ever seen referencing the jump-turn move is J/R. And in J/R, it is described as the pitcher jumping up with both feet simultaneously in the air, and turning the body towards the base so that when the pitcher lands, his free foot gains direction and distance to the base.

That's clearly not what happened here, at least per J/R's description of the move.

If there's another authoritative reference that describes other ways a pitcher may execute a jump-turn, I'd be interested to hear them, just for my education.

That is what I referred to as the "classic jump turn" way back when. I'm really in the camp that wasn't a jump turn in the true sense of the meaning.

[Lapopez]

I first entered the world of umpire forums in the late 90s on McGriff’s board. My all time favorite poster is Bob Pariseau. I was constantly copying and pasting his responses. On September 10, 1999, I posted the following question:

“With a runner on first and a right handed pitcher, I often see the following pickoff move at the 11-15 year old level. The pitcher will, in one continuous motion, step back off the rubber with his right foot, turn and step towards first, followed by the throw to first. Although this is not a very fast move, I am not questioning the move itself since it is a legal move. Following this move I have seen pitchers throw the ball out of play. At another time I saw a pitcher bluff the throw because, when he turned, he saw that the first baseman was not covering the base. One viewpoint is that when the pitcher stepped off the rubber he became an infielder. Therefore on the overthrown ball the runner is awarded third (a two base award). The bluffed throw to first would not be a balk since the pitcher was not touching the rubber. These would be two consistent rulings. I don’t agree with them though. When a pitcher disengages the rubber he must drop his hands to his sides. If he does this, I agree he becomes an infielder and is subject to 8.01e/7.05g. But in the aforementioned play, the move originated with the pitcher in contact with the rubber and followed continuously with the throw (or feint) to first. In my opinion he is still considered to be a “pitcher” for the purposes of the balk rule and 7.05h. I would charge a balk on the feinted throw and award only second on the overthrown ball. Does my argument have any merit?”

I am grateful for the following response by Bob, which has made this situation “textbook” for me ever since. Warning: Bob was quite the verbose fellow.

“First I should confess that when I was learning the balk rules I came to the same conclusion! The text of OBR is not really clear on this one.

I rapidly learned I was wrong. The INTENT of the rule (dropping hands to side) is to protect the BATTER. It is one way of keeping the pitcher from “quick pitching” the batter—since the pitcher now has to go through all the normal preliminaries as part of re-engaging the rubber. He can’t just step off, then step on, then pitch all at once. The way to enforce it is to require the pitcher to drop his hands before he RE-engages the rubber after stepping off. So the step-back pickoff is legal, and yes it is a throw by an infielder (two bases on a throw out of play), and yes as a throw by an infielder the pitcher MAY legally feint to 1B.

Technically the pitcher’s pivot foot must land entirely off of, and in back of, the rubber before the pitcher separates his hands to start the snap-throwing motion, but many umpires are not that picky and will allow a simultaneous step-back and separation of hands.

Note also that failure to drop the hands before stepping back onto the rubber is not in and of itself a Balk unless the pitcher actually does quick pitch the batter. It’s a “DON’T DO THAT!” situation. Warn the pitcher and eject if he persists.

Finally, note that if the pitcher steps to the SIDE with his pivot foot (i.e. a step towards 3B with the right foot by a righty on a pickoff to 1B), then he has NOT legally disengaged the rubber. This is the start of a jump-turn or step-turn pickoff. Both are legal, but both are considered to be throws “from the rubber” since the pitcher never legally disengaged by stepping BACK (even though his pivot foot might actually have come off the rubber as part of the side step towards 3B). As such, the pitcher MUST step-and-throw (not feint) to 1B, and a throw out of play is only a one base award.
--Bob”

Thanks Bob, wherever you are!

Good catch, rpumpire!

[jicecone]

The one thing I keep seeing is this talk about dropping your hands to the side before disengaging the plate. Unless I am wrong here, that is necessary from the wind-up position, not the set position as shown .

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jicecone

The one thing I keep seeing is this talk about dropping your hands to the side before disengaging the plate. Unless I am wrong here, that is necessary from the wind-up position, not the set position as shown .

"Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side;"

[jicecone]

I am aware of that Bob however, this idea of dropping the hands to the sides is only applicable to the windup.So i do not see were it is applicable here.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

I first entered the world of umpire forums in the late 90s on McGriff’s board. My all time favorite poster is Bob Pariseau. I was constantly copying and pasting his responses. On September 10, 1999, I posted the following question:

“With a runner on first and a right handed pitcher,

SNIP!

--Bob”

Thanks Bob, wherever you are!

Good catch, rpumpire!

Good ole' Bob. Why use one word when a thousand will do just as nicely? LOL.