1 or 2 Base Award?

[insatty]

Carl Childress's March 13 rules article contains the following hypothetical:

"The only way we can ever be sure that Smitty knows the rules is when we see him answer a question like the following:

Play 2: True or False. NFHS rules apply. R2. B1 swings and misses for strike three. The ball gets away from the catcher and rolls into the path of the batter, who kicks it into a marked dead ball area. The umpire is certain the kick was accidental. He correctly scores R2 and sends B1 to second.

Umpires who write "True" may call with me anytime."

I hate to think that I am now an old smitty, and I regularly score well on the rules exams. But I answered this Play "False." I conceptualized this as a legally pitched ball that is deflected out of play that results in a one-base award, time of pitch. Mr. Childress obviously conceptualizes this as a fair batted ball that is deflected out of play resulting in a two-base award.

Why am I wrong?

[greymule]

I would have awarded one base, too. Leaves R2 on 3B and BR on 1B.

However, Fed often does not parallel OBR, so maybe this is a Fed exception.

[Bfair]

I've been trained to watch to judge for what impetus causes the ball to go out of play, and to judge whether the ball would have gone out of play on its own absent of any subsequent impetus should it be accidentally deflected. In the situation presented, it doesn't appear that the pitch would have gone to DBT as a result of the impetus or absent of the runner's accidental impetus. Under Fed rule I'd see this no different than a fair ball that is hit through F5's legs striking R3 sliding into 3B and being deflected into the 3B dugout.

In Carl's article I would have agreed with him in his ruling but disagreed with him in his statement:

Umpires who write "True" may call with me anytime.

Those who know us would not necessarily expect that statement to apply to all umpires who agree with him on this issue.........LOL.


Freix

[insatty]

Freix:

In the NAPBL Umpires Manual, the section on deflected balls into DBT (I think § 3.8 but I don't have it with me) suggests that the "impetus" of an errant throw does not change from the fielder who threw the ball to the fielder who deflected it into DBT unless the latter gains possession of the ball before deflecting it.

Thus, the impetus of the ball remained with the pitcher and does not change to the batter-runner in the hypothetical who deflects the ball without possessing it.

What do you think?

[Rich Ives]

The closest thing I could find in the 2003 BRD, article 36, says, for a deliberately deflected pitch, one base if the pitch would have gone dead anyhow and two bases if would not have gone dead.

Article 267 says, in play 100-267, that if the interference not deliberate, the results of the play stand.

[greymule]

Well, "rolls into the path of the batter" doesn't sound as if it was going out of play on its own. And it does say the batter kicks it. Two bases.

[NJumpire9]

Does rule 8-3-3 I in 2002 FED case book, page 61, clear this up?

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by greymule
Well, "rolls into the path of the batter" doesn't sound as if it was going out of play on its own. And it does say the batter kicks it. Two bases.

It is no longer a pitch when the catcher drops it, and its momentum as a pitch is over.

It was an unintentional deflection, so the batter is not to blame.

When a live ball goes to dead ball territory, unless it's a pitch or a throw from the rubber, the award is 2 bases. Right?

[greymule]

When a live ball goes to dead ball territory, unless it's a pitch or a throw from the rubber, the award is 2 bases. Right?

I thought there was another, albeit much rarer, play in which the ball goes out of play and it's neither a pitch nor a throw from the rubber nor a throw by a fielder. The only book I have with me here at work is ASA 2003, but I seem to remember something similar in all the books: "When a fielder loses possession of a ball, such as on an attempted tag, and the ball enters the dead ball area . . . each runner is awarded one base from the last base touched at the time the ball entered the dead ball area. . . ."

I had this play last year. Abel on 2B. Baker hits a ground ball to F6, and Abel tries to advance. F6 swipes his glove at Abel in an attempt to tag him. The glove hits Abel's knee, but the ball pop outs and shoots into DBT. I thought it was one base from where the runner was at the point the ball went into DBT. Since, when the ball went out, Abel was between 2B and 3B and Baker had not reached 1B, I gave them 3B and 1B, respectively.

Or this one: Abel is caught in a rundown between 1B and 2B. As Abel retreats to 1B, the throw beats him. The fielder puts the glove on the ground, but as Abel slides in, he knocks the ball loose and it goes into the dugout. I thought Abel got one base in that situation, not two.

And what about this? Abel is on 2B and Baker hits a foul pop that F2 catches near the dugout. F2 takes a couple of steps back toward his position and then drops the ball, which hits his shoe and rolls into the dugout. I thought Abel got one base only in that situation.

If this applies to baseball too, then I would say that F2 lost control of the ball. He didn't throw it.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by insatty
Freix:

In the NAPBL Umpires Manual, the section on deflected balls into DBT (I think § 3.8 but I don't have it with me) suggests that the "impetus" of an errant throw does not change from the fielder who threw the ball to the fielder who deflected it into DBT unless the latter gains possession of the ball before deflecting it.

Thus, the impetus of the ball remained with the pitcher and does not change to the batter-runner in the hypothetical who deflects the ball without possessing it.

What do you think?

When considering a pitch or throw from the rubber, the concept of impetus is of importance in determining a 1 base vs. 2 base award.

With regards to a deflected batted ball or one thrown from other than the rubber going to DBT, the award will be 2 bases and the concept of gaining possession deals moreso in determining whether the award is based from TOP (batted ball) and TOT (thrown ball) vs. the actual time of incident (ball or fielder going to DBT). A fielder's momentum can also become an issue in determing from which point the 2 base award is based upon.

There are too many possibilities to discuss in a single post, but review of the NAPBL will aid anyone significantly. J/R does a more thorough job of addressing momentum.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[bob jenkins]

My summary:

1) The OBR and FED rules on "deflections" out of play are different, although they will result in the same decisions much of the time.

2) ASA is also different (apparently, at least -- based on greymule's play).

3) Greymule first answered "one base", then "two", then "one" again. IF he'd only answer "three" and "four" he could be sure to be right.

4) I agree with Carl -- two bases.

[Patrick Szalapski]

This doesn't sit well with me in thinking of CS/FP. Absent the unintentional kick, the batter-runner would perhaps be out or perhaps reach first base, but he is very unlikely to reach second. Indeed, I agree that the catcher missed his opportunity to catch the ball, but because the batter kicked the ball accidentally, does he lose his opportunity to retrieve it?

I can't see making this call in a real-life situation. Anyone who didn't know the rules would say I gave the batter second base after he kicked the ball out of play, and would see it as ridiculous.

More thoughts, please?

P-Sz

[chris s]

Real simple, judge it intentional! Wack him out, make everybody happy and move on with the game!!!! Most all of the fields I work would take one helluva kick to get the ball into BDT, so , fortuanately I will (hopefully) never see this stuff.....chris

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski
This doesn't sit well with me in thinking of CS/FP. Absent the unintentional kick, the batter-runner would perhaps be out or perhaps reach first base, but he is very unlikely to reach second. Indeed, I agree that the catcher missed his opportunity to catch the ball, but because the batter kicked the ball accidentally, does he lose his opportunity to retrieve it?

I can't see making this call in a real-life situation. Anyone who didn't know the rules would say I gave the batter second base after he kicked the ball out of play, and would see it as ridiculous.

More thoughts, please?

P-Sz

Pat: CS/FP is for those times when the rules are ambiguous. FED 8-4-1a: The batter-runner is out when he intentionally [my emphasis] interferes with the catcher's attempt to field the ball after a third strike.

Now, how are you going to explain your "common sense" ruling to a coach who knows the rules?

Don't waste your energy on easy plays.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
Pat: CS/FP is for those times when the rules are ambiguous. FED 8-4-1a: The batter-runner is out when he intentionally [my emphasis] interferes with the catcher's attempt to field the ball after a third strike.

Now, how are you going to explain your "common sense" ruling to a coach who knows the rules?

Don't waste your energy on easy plays. [/B]

The question here is an award of one or two bases. I never wanted to call this guy out.

Let me be sure I understand the letter of the law. Since the BR provided the impetus required for the ball to reach DBT, it is not considered a pitch but rather as any other live ball, thus a two base award.

Now, everyone is going to see that the batter kicked the ball out of play, and everyone is going to think that batter is in trouble. I can't see giving the batter TWO bases when he would have never gotten two bases had he not kicked the ball.

It would be easier to deal the rare coach that would know this rule than it would be to silence the common coach that has no clue what the rule is, but he absolutely knows you don't give the batter who just struck out second base because he kicked the ball out of play.

P-Sz