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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 06:54pm
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NLCS blown base award

Did anyone catch the blown base award on the pickoff attempt by Matt Cain in the bottom of the 3rd inning of today's NLCS game? Cain threw the ball out of play and the umpires awarded the runner second. But the replay clearly showed Cain had stepped off prior to the pickoff throw, so the runner should have been awarded third.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 07:17pm
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Not seeing it, was it possibly a jab step or jump turn?
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 07:17pm
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Probably ruled the move a jump turn. That's more likely than such a basic mistake.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 07:23pm
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Here's a video:

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s...nt=pickoff.mp4
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 07:37pm
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That is a clear disengagement and should be a two-base award. That is not a jump turn or jab step.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 07:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
That is a clear disengagement and should be a two-base award. That is not a jump turn or jab step.
On the contrary, that's a classic jump turn. Perhaps the slo-mo is deceiving you.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 08:16pm
UES UES is offline
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Close enough to a jump turn for me - especially in LIVE speed. I think you're over analyzing it even though you may be "technically" correct. Let me put it to you this way...

Option #1: Award the runner second (pretty much what everyone is expecting) and continue the game with no further incident.

Option #2: Be a "hero", pull a 2 base award out of your a$$, point the runner, who has already stopped at second, over to third, try explaining to an irate manager that the pitcher became an infielder blah, blah, blah, huddle up with the rest of your crew who, like everyone else, is wondering what the hell you just called, and then watch yourself on the highlights 1000 times over the next day or so trying to defend a call that only you and maybe a few other internet umpires about how great of a call it was.

No thanks, I'll take option #1 Yeah, go ahead, call me a wuss and tell me I have no balls...I'd rather take a little crap from a couple of people than get dragged through the mud by everyone else in the world. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then call it a duck.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 09:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UES View Post
Close enough to a jump turn for me - especially in LIVE speed. I think you're over analyzing it even though you may be "technically" correct.
Agreed.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 09:44pm
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I will happily be corrected if the live video is posted but from what I see this is a kicked call.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 09:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UES View Post
Close enough to a jump turn for me - especially in LIVE speed. I think you're over analyzing it even though you may be "technically" correct. Let me put it to you this way...

Option #1: Award the runner second (pretty much what everyone is expecting) and continue the game with no further incident.

Option #2: Be a "hero", pull a 2 base award out of your a$$, point the runner, who has already stopped at second, over to third, try explaining to an irate manager that the pitcher became an infielder blah, blah, blah, huddle up with the rest of your crew who, like everyone else, is wondering what the hell you just called, and then watch yourself on the highlights 1000 times over the next day or so trying to defend a call that only you and maybe a few other internet umpires about how great of a call it was.

No thanks, I'll take option #1 Yeah, go ahead, call me a wuss and tell me I have no balls...I'd rather take a little crap from a couple of people than get dragged through the mud by everyone else in the world. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then call it a duck.
Six set of eyes on the play. No complaints. Let it ride.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 07:52am
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100% a jump turn.

To be a disengagement, he has to place the foot on the ground before separating the hands or turning the hip / starting the step toward first.

Ask yourself: If Cain had made the same move but held on to the ball, would you have it as legal or a balk?
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 08:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UES View Post
Close enough to a jump turn for me - especially in LIVE speed. I think you're over analyzing it even though you may be "technically" correct. Let me put it to you this way...

Option #1: Award the runner second (pretty much what everyone is expecting) and continue the game with no further incident.

Option #2: Be a "hero", pull a 2 base award out of your a$$, point the runner, who has already stopped at second, over to third, try explaining to an irate manager that the pitcher became an infielder blah, blah, blah, huddle up with the rest of your crew who, like everyone else, is wondering what the hell you just called, and then watch yourself on the highlights 1000 times over the next day or so trying to defend a call that only you and maybe a few other internet umpires about how great of a call it was.

No thanks, I'll take option #1 Yeah, go ahead, call me a wuss and tell me I have no balls...I'd rather take a little crap from a couple of people than get dragged through the mud by everyone else in the world. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then call it a duck.
Wuss.

Seriously, that's not a jump turn, IMO. Both feet didn't go airborne simultaneously as he turned. He clearly disengaged and stepped back with his pivot foot first before his free foot became airborne. If he had executed this move to feint the runner back to first, you might catch heck if you balked him.

Perhaps in real time, it looked more like a jump turn than not. But the slo-mo replay is convincing enough, to me anyway, that this should have been a two-base award.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 08:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
That is a clear disengagement and should be a two-base award. That is not a jump turn or jab step.
Um ... that's EXACTLY a jump-turn. Textbook.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 08:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
If he had executed this move to feint the runner back to first, you might catch heck if you balked him.
You'd catch way more if you DIDN'T balk him. Your criteria are wrong.

Edit to add: Heck ... the ball is out of his glove BEFORE the first foot hits the ground. This is absolutely not a legal disengagement.
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Last edited by MD Longhorn; Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 12:15pm.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2012, 08:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjim View Post
I will happily be corrected if the live video is posted but from what I see this is a kicked call.
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
100% a jump turn.

To be a disengagement, he has to place the foot on the ground before separating the hands or turning the hip / starting the step toward first.

Ask yourself: If Cain had made the same move but held on to the ball, would you have it as legal or a balk?
Legal. He disengaged with his pivot foot. This same play with the pitcher not throwing to first happens all the time and no one balks it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
You'd catch way more if you DIDN'T balk him. Your criteria are wrong.

Edit to add: Heck ... the ball is out of his hand BEFORE the first foot hits the ground. This is absolutely not a legal disengagement.
You must be watching video of a different play, because if you pause it at the 2 second mark, his pivot foot is clearly on the ground behind the rubber and the ball is still in his hand. Have your own opinion if you want, but don't blatantly make up things about the video that just aren't there simply to advance your point.
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