Twins @ Tigers - interference call

[rbmartin]

Just for educational purposes, if I was one of the other umpires in this scenario, what should I do?
a) absolutely nothing
b) absolutely nothing unless asked by U2
c) stroll over and kindly say "you know, he was on the bag so he's not out unless it's intentional".
d) other

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Just for educational purposes, if I was one of the other umpires in this scenario, what should I do?
a) absolutely nothing
b) absolutely nothing unless asked by U2
c) stroll over and kindly say "you know, he was on the bag so he's not out unless it's intentional".
d) other

A, B and, D if it means doing A.

[JJ]

This is a rule interp, and is protestable. If I were one of the other umpires I would flat out volunteer information. You better get this one right or someone will have to arrange schedules to complete the game at a later date...

JJ

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by JJ

This is a rule interp, and is protestable. If I were one of the other umpires I would flat out volunteer information. You better get this one right or someone will have to arrange schedules to complete the game at a later date...

JJ

Not unless someone utters the words "I protest". You have no idea what his ruling is and therefore, should not be getting involved. He may have ruled something that you do not know what the call was.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Not unless someone utters the words "I protest". You have no idea what his ruling is and therefore, should not be getting involved. He may have ruled something that you do not know what the call was.

Not in this case.

There is no possibility that R2 and only R2 was out. You have to intervene.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by Matt

Not in this case.

There is no possibility that R2 and only R2 was out. You have to intervene.

Actually, there is if you don't know why he is calling R2 out. Suppose this, even for this play. The ball is deemed to have touched R2 by U2. Do you know that at the time of the play? No. And, if the ball is judged to have touched R2 b/c of U2 being straightlined and losing view of it, how do you know he didn't judge it to be that without asking him?

And, if he did judge it to be that, then R2 is the only one out on it without any intent to interfere. Again, you have NO idea what the call is for and should not be attempting to intervene when you don't know what the call is. And, it is NOT your job to find out what the call is. It is the manager's. If he doesn't do it, then no one does it.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Actually, there is if you don't know why he is calling R2 out. Suppose this, even for this play. The ball is deemed to have touched R2 by U2. Do you know that at the time of the play? No. And, if the ball is judged to have touched R2 b/c of U2 being straightlined and losing view of it, how do you know he didn't judge it to be that without asking him?

And, if he did judge it to be that, then R2 is the only one out on it without any intent to interfere. Again, you have NO idea what the call is for and should not be attempting to intervene when you don't know what the call is. And, it is NOT your job to find out what the call is. It is the manager's. If he doesn't do it, then no one does it.

If it hit R2 wouldn't the ball have passed thru or by the fielder in the OP?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Not unless someone utters the words "I protest". You have no idea what his ruling is and therefore, should not be getting involved. He may have ruled something that you do not know what the call was.

If this happens in my game I'm going right to the calling umpire and ask him what he has - I'm not going to wait for someone to say "protest", which usually comes after a lengthy and heated discussion.
It was certainly obvious to me that the calling umpire screwed up, and it was also obvious to me that it was a rules boo-boo no matter WHAT the call was.
I hope that if I would ever be the calling umpire here that another umpire would come to me immediately to find out what I called. If this is corrected quickly and appropriately it reduces the crap that's inevitably going to fly.
Heck, the MLB guys huddle up for everything else - why not a cut and dried one like this?

JJ

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by JJ

If this happens in my game I'm going right to the calling umpire and ask him what he has - I'm not going to wait for someone to say "protest", which usually comes after a lengthy and heated discussion.
It was certainly obvious to me that the calling umpire screwed up, and it was also obvious to me that it was a rules boo-boo no matter WHAT the call was.
I hope that if I would ever be the calling umpire here that another umpire would come to me immediately to find out what I called. If this is corrected quickly and appropriately it reduces the crap that's inevitably going to fly.
Heck, the MLB guys huddle up for everything else - why not a cut and dried one like this?

JJ

If this happens in your game, go ask if you feel it necessary. But, no umpire should be approaching b/c he thinks the call is wrong. He may very well be wrong and be the biggest jackass on the field. And, just proved it. Wait until asked for help. Again, you have NO idea what the call was and should not be approaching to find out what the call is. That is the calling umpire's territory until you are invited into it.

They probably didn't huddle b/c none of the others knew what the call was and decided it best to wait until they were asked.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Not unless someone utters the words "I protest". You have no idea what his ruling is and therefore, should not be getting involved. He may have ruled something that you do not know what the call was.

Most of the time, I agree. If there is SOME judgement call that ends with the result the umpire gave, then I understand what you're saying.

Unfortunately, in this case, there was NO judgement decision by that umpire that results in one and only one out. Either he judged intentional interference which results in 2 outs, or he didn't which results in zero. 1 is just not an option here. Therefore SOME rule misapplication must be at play here and you MUST get together to fix it.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Most of the time, I agree. If there is SOME judgement call that ends with the result the umpire gave, then I understand what you're saying.

Unfortunately, in this case, there was NO judgement decision by that umpire that results in one and only one out. Either he judged intentional interference which results in 2 outs, or he didn't which results in zero. 1 is just not an option here. Therefore SOME rule misapplication must be at play here and you MUST get together to fix it.

How do you know there was no judgment by him to result in 1 out? Do you know exactly what the call was? Everyone speculates it was b/c of his arm motion and whatever else he did. No one knows what that call was at the time of the call except the calling umpire. May be why none of the others stepped on his call either. Until it was explained to them, they didn't know what it was and left him to make his call until asked.

It appears the group hugging and stepping on other umpire's toes is trickling down into the lower ranks. I thought it was a bad precedent being set then and hoped it would not go further than that. I guess I was wrong and doing some wishful thinking. I own my calls and only ask if I need to (which is rare). I expect my partners to do the same and respect my responsibilities to be left to me to handle.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

How do you know there was no judgment by him to result in 1 out? Do you know exactly what the call was? Everyone speculates it was b/c of his arm motion and whatever else he did. No one knows what that call was at the time of the call except the calling umpire. May be why none of the others stepped on his call either. Until it was explained to them, they didn't know what it was and left him to make his call until asked.

It appears the group hugging and stepping on other umpire's toes is trickling down into the lower ranks. I thought it was a bad precedent being set then and hoped it would not go further than that. I guess I was wrong and doing some wishful thinking. I own my calls and only ask if I need to (which is rare). I expect my partners to do the same and respect my responsibilities to be left to me to handle.

I did not think, from what we've seen, that the ball hitting the runner could possibly be in the umpire's mind, especially after the circle-around signal, whatever that was. I'm not in the "stop everything, discuss everything, get every call right at all costs" crowd - far from it.

But if you have a strong idea that a rule has been misinterpreted (rule ... not judgement), you MUST address it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

A, B and, D if it means doing A.

I disagree. If he had ruled 2 outs, then as bad as that call might be, you're right - do nothing.

But he ruled 1 out - a result that is impossible regardless of his judgement. We have a RULES mistake here, and rules mistakes (when noted) MUST be fixed. So yes, we would definitely be huddling on this one - the appropriate rule would be stated, and U2 would, based on his own judgement of the play, announce the proper penalty.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I disagree. If he had ruled 2 outs, then as bad as that call might be, you're right - do nothing.

But he ruled 1 out - a result that is impossible regardless of his judgement. We have a RULES mistake here, and rules mistakes (when noted) MUST be fixed. So yes, we would definitely be huddling on this one - the appropriate rule would be stated, and U2 would, based on his own judgement of the play, announce the proper penalty.

Maybe, if I was crew chief but from what I saw of the video he didn't ask for help and he didnt have to toss the coach either. Which is unusal for that coach. I think this is one of those times that even Ozzy would say, "We don't need no stinking conference".

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

We have a RULES mistake here, and rules mistakes (when noted) MUST be fixed. So yes, we would definitely be huddling on this one - the appropriate rule would be stated, and U2 would, based on his own judgement of the play, announce the proper penalty.

What do you mean by "when noted"?

If you're the crew chief, and you know for a fact that one of your partners has blown a rule interpretation, are you saying you must do something even if that partner didn't ask for help?

I know that in certain amateur rule sets, umpires are required to take whatever action necessary to prevent a protest. But I didn't think the same requirement existed in pro ball. Per OBR 9.02(b), it seems to me that it is incumbent upon the offended manager to initiate the discussion through an appeal.

Or am I wrong?