Illegal Slide?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The rule you quoted uses the word "play" but you say no play is required. Does Not Compute!

I would contend that once F4 booted the ball there is no longer a play being made. I'm not quite sure because I can't find a FED definition of "play" but in OBR it's a legitimate attempt to retire a runner which you can't do in this case without the ball.

OK. I agree about "force play," but if F4 is still close enough to the base to be contacted by the runner near the base, I'm ruling an FPSR violation. Again, the runner didn't know the play would end when he chose to slide illegally.

If he has moved away from the base and is chasing the ball, that would not be an FPSR violation.

[DG]

If the badly thrown ball has been deflected by fielder toward umpire at B position, well before the contact there is no longer a play, thus no interferference possible, thus no FPSR violation.

If he slid inside to avoid F4 on other side and due to bad throw F4 is drawn inside, but contact is after the deflection then where is the interference?

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The rule you quoted uses the word "play" but you say no play is required. Does Not Compute!

I would contend that once F4 booted the ball there is no longer a play being made. I'm not quite sure because I can't find a FED definition of "play" but in OBR it's a legitimate attempt to retire a runner which you can't do in this case without the ball.

However, the rule does specifically mention a "force play", and that is defined: A force play situation is in effect from the moment the batter becomes a runner, and is not ended until the runner is put out, reaches his advance base, or a trailing runner is put out. A force play does not need a ball or a play. In the OP, the runner is not sliding on a direct line to the base, nor sliding/running away from the fielder. By rule, this is a FPSR violation.

Now, I admit that getting two outs here seems a little over the top, but that's what the rule requires, in both FED and NCAA.

[RPatrino]

Dave, please reference a case book play, or rule reference. I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. As I see it, no ball, no play, no FPSR. Yes, there is a force situation, but there can be no interference.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

I don't think the FPSR is the proper call for the OP.

I would damn sure ring R1 up for an illegal slide since the throw came from F6, and R1 was sliding to the inside. In this situation, R1 should have been going straight to the base, or to the outfield side.

If I don't have this right I'll get remedial training (RTFM). But, in calling FPSR INT at 2B, which would usually be called by the PU, you would see a slide not directly at 2B and not away from the fielder. You would not look at anything else and call the violation right away. Somewhere, FED says it wants this called even it doesn't disrupt the play or (I'm guessing here) there is not a play. It's a safety issue.
While I know this I have not always applied it. That's why the coaches play the odds.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Dave, please reference a case book play, or rule reference. I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. As I see it, no ball, no play, no FPSR. Yes, there is a force situation, but there can be no interference.

Note this caseplay references an attempt and does not go any further:

Rule: 2.32.2



2.32.2 SITUATION B

R1 is on third base and R2 is on first base with no outs. A ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 at second base. R2 slides out of the base path in an attempt to prevent F4 from turning the double play.

RULING: Since R2 did not slide directly into second base, R2 is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. R1 returns to third base, the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Note this caseplay references an attempt and does not go any further:

Rule: 2.32.2



2.32.2 SITUATION B

R1 is on third base and R2 is on first base with no outs. A ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 at second base. R2 slides out of the base path in an attempt to prevent F4 from turning the double play.

RULING: Since R2 did not slide directly into second base, R2 is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. R1 returns to third base, the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

Here is where the OP situation differs from the case book definition of FPSR. You would have a very hard time selling calling a double play on the OP.

[SAump]

FED 8.4.2c. does not legally attempt to avoid a fielder in the immediate act of making a play on him, or

PENALTY: The runner is out, the ball remains live unless interference is called.

Umpire may rule that the runner is out by sliding into F4 near the bag if he believes the runner has abandoned effort to reach base safely and is trying to protect advance of teammate.

HTBT, but if no other possible play in progress, I have nothing here.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Dave, please reference a case book play, or rule reference. I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. As I see it, no ball, no play, no FPSR. Yes, there is a force situation, but there can be no interference.

Well, because the NCAA rules state this very clearly, I'll post that, bolding the sections that I think are responsive to your interpretation.

Force-Play-Slide Rule
SECTION 4. The intent of the force-play-slide rule is to ensure the safety of all players. This is a safety and an interference rule. Whether the defense could have completed the double play has no bearing on the applicability of this rule. This rule pertains to a force-play situation at any base, regardless of the number of outs.
a. On any force play, the runner must slide on the ground before the base and in a direct line between the two bases. It is permissible for the slider’s momentum to carry him through the base in the baseline extended (see diagram).
Exception—A runner need not slide directly into a base as long as the runner slides or runs in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder. Interference shall not be called.
(1) “On the ground” means either a head-first slide or a slide with one leg and buttock on the ground before the base.
(2) “Directly into a base” means the runner’s entire body (feet, legs, trunk and arms) must stay in a straight line between the bases.
b. Contact with a fielder is legal and interference shall not be called if the runner makes a legal slide directly to the base and in the baseline extended (see diagram).
A.R.—If contact occurs on top of the base as a result of a “pop-up” slide, this contact is legal.
c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:
(1) The runner slides or runs out of the base line in the direction of the fielder and alters the play of a fielder (with or without contact);
(2) The runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide and either makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;
(3) The runner’s raised leg makes contact higher than the fielder’s knee when in a standing position;
(4) The runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
(5) The runner illegally slides toward or contacts the fielder even if the fielder makes no attempt to throw to complete a play.
PENALTY for 1-5—(1) With less than two outs, the batter-runner, as well as the interfering runner, shall be declared out and no other runner(s) shall advance.
(2) With two outs, the interfering runner shall be declared out and no other runner(s) shall advance.
(3) If the runner’s slide or collision is flagrant, the runner shall be ejected from the contest.

Note particularly the first paragraph which says this rule is intended to ensure safety. Therefore, actual interference is not required, nor is the possibility of a double play.
Also, c(1) seems to me to cover specifically the situation of the OP. "The play of a fielder" is more general than "play on a runner".

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Here is where the OP situation differs from the case book definition of FPSR. You would have a very hard time selling calling a double play on the OP.

I would have a hard time and I don't think I would have called it but you wanted a caseplay and I found it. Truly, in the OP, what I think FED wants and won't get, is you see the illegal slide at the fielder and point and say "time, that's interference." You don't even have to see what the fielder does afterward. Doesn't happen in the real world.

[RPatrino]

Dave, I hate to belabor this but you aren't making your case. The statement you cite, (1) The runner slides or runs out of the base line in the direction of the fielder and alters the play of a fielder (with or without contact) can't be used to support the OP because there we no altering of a play. The illegal slide did not cause the deflection, it would have occurred absent the slide.

[Dave Reed]

OK, evidently you think that the "play of a fielder" has to mean that the fielder is playing on a runner. I don't agree.

Now, what about the rest? Still think there has to be interference to enforce this rule? (see first and bolded paragraph,)
Still think that it's OK for a runner to slide into a fielder who is away from the bag? (see 4a.)
If you still think either of those, then I submit that you aren't actually reading the rule, and ignoring the point of the rule as well.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by umpjim

If I don't have this right I'll get remedial training (RTFM). But, in calling FPSR INT at 2B, which would usually be called by the PU, you would see a slide not directly at 2B and not away from the fielder. You would not look at anything else and call the violation right away. Somewhere, FED says it wants this called even it doesn't disrupt the play or (I'm guessing here) there is not a play. It's a safety issue.
While I know this I have not always applied it. That's why the coaches play the odds.

Just like I told one coach when he ran out to discuss the call, I get, "Did he alter the play? Did he make contact?"

I replied, "No, but it's not because he didn't try his damnedest to! Would you rather he hurt somebody next time?"

It's probably one of the most misunderstood, and misapplied rules by players, coaches, and umpires. I've seen games where I definitely would have called it, not be called, and vice versa.

I simply tell them go straight at the base. Don't contact a fielder on the other side of the base. You don't have to slide, but if you don't, don't interfere with throw, and when you know you are out for sure, run away from the throw.

That's about as basic as you can get it without interference being called most of the time depending on the umpire.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

OK. I agree about "force play," but if F4 is still close enough to the base to be contacted by the runner near the base, I'm ruling an FPSR violation. Again, the runner didn't know the play would end when he chose to slide illegally.

If he has moved away from the base and is chasing the ball, that would not be an FPSR violation.

You appear to be assuming things not in evidence. There is nothing illegal about sliding to the inside of the bag. You cannot pretend that the runner didn't know that the play would end but absolve the fielder of the culpability here.

For NFHS ball, a runner who slides to the inside of the bag is not doing anything illegal. There are other events that must transpire for it to be so. The OP did not offer any.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Just like I told one coach when he ran out to discuss the call, I get, "Did he alter the play? Did he make contact?"

I replied, "No, but it's not because he didn't try his damnedest to! Would you rather he hurt somebody next time?"

It's probably one of the most misunderstood, and misapplied rules by players, coaches, and umpires. I've seen games where I definitely would have called it, not be called, and vice versa.

I simply tell them go straight at the base. Don't contact a fielder on the other side of the base. You don't have to slide, but if you don't, don't interfere with throw, and when you know you are out for sure, run away from the throw.

That's about as basic as you can get it without interference being called most of the time depending on the umpire.

Really? You said that?

In the OP, the runner did not interfere with the throw. The fielder deflected it - the play involves defensive error.