Obstruction Protection

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Spence

Let me try again.

FED

Runner on 2nd base stops at third base.
Runner on 1st is the one that is obstructed after rounding 2nd and is ultimately thrown out going back to 2nd base. 3rd base was occupied which is why R1 ended up trying to get back to 2nd but was tagged out.

That's what I understood. My FED response is correct for this case. F1 gets 3B, forcing you to score R2.

[Spence]

I'm told I left out one fact.

R1 rounded 2nd, was obstructed, went to 3B and rounded it and THEN saw R2 coming back to the bag. R1 then tried to get back to 2B.

Does that change anything in FED?

[DG]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm told I left out one fact.

R1 rounded 2nd, was obstructed, went to 3B and rounded it and THEN saw R2 coming back to the bag. R1 then tried to get back to 2B.

Does that change anything in FED?

I believe it does.

3b coach must be asleep.

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm told I left out one fact.

R1 rounded 2nd, was obstructed, went to 3B and rounded it and THEN saw R2 coming back to the bag. R1 then tried to get back to 2B.

Does that change anything in FED?

So, R1 went all the way to third, went past third, and then for some reason decided he needed to go all the way back to second (probably because he saw R2 coming back to 3rd?) . While on his journey to 3rd, he was obstructed between 2nd and 3rd (you made a verbal, 'that's obstruction' call). Anything that happens after this point is irrelevant to the obstruction question (in FED). R1, after playing action is over, will be awarded 3rd, R2 (who I assume was originally at 2nd), gets home.

Now in OBR, unless R1 was obstructed on his return to 2nd, I would ignore the obstruction that occurred on his advance to third and the out would stand.

If, by some happy coincidence, the words 'that's obstruction' never left your lips, you are lucky my friend.

[Caesar's Ghost]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

So, R1 went all the way to third, went past third, and then for some reason decided he needed to go all the way back to second (probably because he saw R2 coming back to 3rd?) . While on his journey to 3rd, he was obstructed between 2nd and 3rd (you made a verbal, 'that's obstruction' call). Anything that happens after this point is irrelevant to the obstruction question (in FED).

Not true. Once the runner reaches the base he would have been awarded, the obstruction is ignored. You can have post obstruction evidence, of course, but that's going to apply to awarding additional bases. If the runenr decided to retreat, the obstruction isn't reinstated.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

Not true. Once the runner reaches the base he would have been awarded, the obstruction is ignored. You can have post obstruction evidence, of course, but that's going to apply to awarding additional bases. If the runenr decided to retreat, the obstruction isn't reinstated.

Agree. When R1 acquires 3B, the obstruction has been nullified, the mandatory minimum 1-base award has been satisfied, and we're done with the OBS.

If that runner then (idiotically) chooses to return to 2B during live-ball action and is subsequently tagged out, that out stands. The runner doesn't get 3B, come what may. Had he been tagged out immediately after rounding 3B, that out would have stood, too, and for the same reason: the awarded base has been acquired.

[Spence]

Good info. Let me ask one more related question.

R1. BR hits a gapper. R1 is obstructed by SS and returns to 2nd base. BR would have had an easy double but sees R1 return so he tries to get back to 1B but is tagged out.

Do you award him 2nd base?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Spence

Good info. Let me ask one more related question.

R1. BR hits a gapper. R1 is obstructed by SS and returns to 2nd base. BR would have had an easy double but sees R1 return so he tries to get back to 1B but is tagged out.

Do you award him 2nd base?

Yes.

The FED penalty explicitly spells this out:
"When a runner is obstructed (2-22) while advancing or returning to
a base, the umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner
affected by the obstruction the bases they would have reached, in his opinion,
had there been no obstruction." (8-3-2)

BTW, the next sentence applies to your original case:
"If the runner achieves the base he was attempting to acquire, then the obstruction is ignored."

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Agree. When R1 acquires 3B, the obstruction has been nullified, the mandatory minimum 1-base award has been satisfied, and we're done with the OBS.

If that runner then (idiotically) chooses to return to 2B during live-ball action and is subsequently tagged out, that out stands. The runner doesn't get 3B, come what may. Had he been tagged out immediately after rounding 3B, that out would have stood, too, and for the same reason: the awarded base has been acquired.

Correct. As long as this is not a case of OBR type "A" (which is immediate dead ball) obstruction (which it isn't in this case) advancing to next base nullifies obstruction unless you think the runner would have advanced to home absent the obstruction (not the case here due to lead runner retreating).

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That's what I understood. My FED response is correct for this case. F1 gets 3B, forcing you to score R2.

Nope, you don't force a runner that hasn't been obstructed. And I hope you mean R1.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Nope, you don't force a runner that hasn't been obstructed. And I hope you mean R1.

So am I understanding you correctly that you'd have runners on 2nd and 3rd ?

[Rich Ives]

FED:

If you rule a runner was obstructed between 2B and 3B you MUST award him at least 3B. If that pushes another runner to the plate so be it.

You cannot unring the bell.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

FED:

If you rule a runner was obstructed between 2B and 3B you MUST award him at least 3B. If that pushes another runner to the plate so be it.

You cannot unring the bell.

I'd have to see that one in writing.

[Caesar's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

I'd have to see that one in writing.

RIF.

FED 8-3-2, 4th sentence "If any preceding runner is forced to advance by the awarding of a base or bases to an obstructed runner, the umpire shall award this preceding runner the necessary base or bases."

Other codes have similar language.

Now, in the revised FED play where obstructed R1 reaches third, and then retreats to second, I'd let the play stand.

[rbmartin]

I do not have my book in front of me but I'm thinking that if the runner advanced to the base to which he would have been awarded due to OBS, then voluntarily retreats to a previous base, then he gets nothing from me. I think this would be my ruling in either OBR or FED.