Whats the correct call??

[marker303]

Happen in a game that I coached in last night and I am not sure of the call. LL game, we are visitor - home is at bat with 2 outs, runner at 3rd in an extra innings with a tie ball game. Batter hits ball to SS, SS throws to 1st and the Base Ump calls runner at 1st out. Runner on 3rd is going on contact and goes home, 1st doesn't throw home until after the fact becasue he hears out at 1st is called. Home team appeals the out at 1st call, says 1st left the bag early. Base ump asks for help from Plate ump, plate ump calls runner at 1st safe and then calls runner to home safe run scores game over. Is that the right call??? Most of my team was headed to the dugout to hit when the 3rd out was called. Is the ball dead after the 3rd out is called and runners remain at 1st & 3rd??

[mbyron]

See if I have this right. R3, 2 outs, BR grounds to short, F3 pulls his foot. BU initially calls an out, is asked to get help, PU tells him F3 pulled his foot. Do I have that right?

Score the run, game over. Sorry coach.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by marker303

Happen in a game that I coached in last night and I am not sure of the call. LL game, we are visitor - home is at bat with 2 outs, runner at 3rd in an extra innings with a tie ball game. Batter hits ball to SS, SS throws to 1st and the Base Ump calls runner at 1st out. Runner on 3rd is going on contact and goes home, 1st doesn't throw home until after the fact becasue he hears out at 1st is called. Home team appeals the out at 1st call, says 1st left the bag early. Base ump asks for help from Plate ump, plate ump calls runner at 1st safe and then calls runner to home safe run scores game over. Is that the right call??? Most of my team was headed to the dugout to hit when the 3rd out was called. Is the ball dead after the 3rd out is called and runners remain at 1st & 3rd??

Are you trying to say the runner on third should stay there until he finds out what the result at first is going to be. There was no out at third it got reversed. Think about what your asking here because it doesn't make sense in terms of the rules of the game you are coaching.

[umpjim]

You are trying to make a case for F3 throwing home to get R3 if the original call was Safe at 1B. Total umpire discretion in deciding how to fix a changed call. I'm thinking a throw from F3 after trying for the out at 1B probably would not get R3. I guess so did your umps.

[marker303]

@ mbyron - Thanks for the response. Your understanding is correct, can you explain the call in a little more detail for my education. I assumed because the 3rd out was called, inning over. I understand they can appeal the call, just not sure of the deal at home. Also it appeared to me F3 made the play, so I truly thought we had the 3rd out.

@ JICECONE - NO, I am not saying R3 should not have run, with 2 outs my guy would have been running too. We had a 3rd out call at 1st, so there was really no need to have a play at the plate. Are you saying after we got the 3rd out we should have gotten a 4th out at home just incase the out at 1st gets reversed?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

See if I have this right. R3, 2 outs, BR grounds to short, F3 pulls his foot. BU initially calls an out, is asked to get help, PU tells him F3 pulled his foot. Do I have that right?

Score the run, game over. Sorry coach.

99% right, and right if in doubt.

However, if R3 was nowhere near home at the time the play at first was made, the umpire COULD rule that had the umpires made the correct call initially, R3 would not have scored -and on a reversed call, umpires have the duty to put things back to what they would have been had there not been a reversed call.

That said, I don't see this happening if R3 is off with the pitch - it would have to be blatant and obvious that R3 would not have scored. And in any case, it's completely umpire judgement. (And to your side question, the verbalization of an apparent 3rd out does not really kill the play - no chance runners are getting sent back on 99% of the plays)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by marker303

Are you saying after we got the 3rd out we should have gotten a 4th out at home just in case the out at 1st gets reversed?

If there was ANY doubt in F3's mind (and he knows when there's a possible pulled foot, dropped or bobbled ball, etc) he should throw home. Can't hurt. Heck ... if it's a close play, I (as coach) want him throwing home anyway and not looking to the umpire for his call first.

[marker303]

@ mbcrowder - thanks for the response, very hepful. I am coaching 9's & 10's and am learning the fine points of the game.

Thanks to all the helpful responses, wanting to become a better coach for my players and I figured understanding a call will help me manage my team better. Thanks again.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by marker303

@ mbyron - Thanks for the response. Your understanding is correct, can you explain the call in a little more detail for my education. I assumed because the 3rd out was called, inning over. I understand they can appeal the call, just not sure of the deal at home. Also it appeared to me F3 made the play, so I truly thought we had the 3rd out.

If the 3rd out is recorded, then the inning is over. But the 3rd out was never recorded, since the umpire changed the initial call. That might be unfortunate for you but, assuming they got it right in the end, it's the right call.

Technically this is not an appeal, though everyone refers to it as that. The point is that the BU is using all the info available to him to get the call right, including PU's better angle on the foot touching the base.

My preferred mechanic here, if I'm BU and not sure whether he held the base, is to go to my partner first, before making a call. "Did he have the base?" "Yes/no" "Then he's out/safe!" Some prefer to make their own call first and then get help. You'll find advocates of both mechanics.

As for your judgment that F3 held the base: of course you did. When I'm a fan, I too see what I want to see. We are all biased when we root, which is why the game requires umpires. I will also say I'm impressed you've got 2 umpires for 10U.

Interesting thought: what do folks think about this. If the BU had initially called BR safe for F3 coming off the bag, would it have been easier and less controversial to correct back to an out/no score if that had been necessary?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Interesting thought: what do folks think about this. If the BU had initially called BR safe for F3 coming off the bag, would it have been easier and less controversial to correct back to an out/no score if that had been necessary?

Absolutely no. If he called safe, then he called safe for a reason. He wouldn't need help at that point.

[DG]

Originally Posted by marker303

Happen in a game that I coached in last night and I am not sure of the call. LL game, we are visitor - home is at bat with 2 outs, runner at 3rd in an extra innings with a tie ball game. Batter hits ball to SS, SS throws to 1st and the Base Ump calls runner at 1st out. Runner on 3rd is going on contact and goes home, 1st doesn't throw home until after the fact becasue he hears out at 1st is called. Home team appeals the out at 1st call, says 1st left the bag early. Base ump asks for help from Plate ump, plate ump calls runner at 1st safe and then calls runner to home safe run scores game over. Is that the right call??? Most of my team was headed to the dugout to hit when the 3rd out was called. Is the ball dead after the 3rd out is called and runners remain at 1st & 3rd??

The correct mechanic would be for BU to ask the PU if he was off the bag, before making the call, if he has an out call it means he was on the bag. If he knows the runner beat the catch there is no point asking, safe would be the call. Having callled an out call he is saying he is sure that he was on the bag, and if he comes to me as PU then I am going to tell him what I think and it is up to him to change the call, not me. If it was close I tell him I think it was close but real close and if he thinks he was out I advise him to stick to the call. If he was safe by big margin I advise him it is obvious to everybody and if he wants to change his call I stand by him and we take no crap.

Whether ball is dead between innings has been debated.

[MD Longhorn]

[QUOTE=DG;838907]The correct mechanic would be for BU to ask the PU if he was off the bag, before making the call, ['QUOTE]Not taught in any clinic I've been to the last 7 or 8 years. I do remember this mechanic making its rounds back then a bit, but it's not standard, and no longer taught.

If it was close I tell him I think it was close but real close and if he thinks he was out I advise him to stick to the call. If he was safe by big margin I advise him it is obvious to everybody and if he wants to change his call I stand by him and we take no crap.

Yuck. 100% and utterly wrong. PU does NOT give input on whether the batter beat the throw. BU has angle and distance on this - PU's advice is inherently worse than BU's view. PU gives input on pulled foot, swipe tag, and possibly bobbled ball.

[Justme561]

Originally Posted by DG

The correct mechanic would be for BU to ask the PU if he was off the bag, before making the call, if he has an out call it means he was on the bag.

When I'm on bases I make my own calls. I don't ask the PU "was he on the bag?" first then make my call. If a coach comes out to talk after a play and I have even the slightest doubt then I'll get together with my partner. We only talk about a pulled foot or maybe a bobbled ball or who is buying dinner after the game

As the BU you know when you might not of had the 'best' position on the play, that happens to us all sometimes but right or wrong I still call what I see.