Whats the call

alwaysask · #1 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 06:44am

Girls ASA 12U game. Runner at 1st no outs. Batter hits a weak line drive that F3 traps (no call from umps), runner at first breaks to second then thinking that F3 caught the ball in the air, dives back to 1st base untouched. F3 throws to F4 at 1st base, runner has hand on bag and getting off of the ground, batter-runner now standing on 1st. umps call a double play. Would the correct call be that the lead runner is out?

Duke · #2 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 07:39am

I'll make an assumtion here that the throw did not beat the batter/runner to first. If that was the case the lead runner would be out, when tagged, or the runner entitled to the bag is safe which is the batter/runner. In this case R1 was forced to advance and is no longer entitled to first. With that said, had the throw to first beat the batter/runner and she was out, then R1 was no longer forced and can remain on first.
It is not always the lead runner that is out when two players occupy the same bag. The runner that is entitled to the base would be safe and the other runner, when tagged is out. If the lead runner is not forced to advance, then the trailing runner is out when tagged.

alwaysask · #3 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 08:09am

The throw did not beat the runner

Dakota · #4 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 08:28am

The BR beat the throw. R1 and the BR (now R2) are both standing on 1B. F3 has presumably caught the ball and has her foot on the bag.

I haven't seen a tag, yet. No outs (yet).

F3 must tag R1, or R1 must attempt to reach 2B before being tagged.

If everybody just stands there looking confused, I'd give them time to allow coaching to happen. Eventually, someone will get a clue.

kellerumps · #5 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 08:57am

If everybody just stands there looking confused, I'd give them time to allow coaching to happen. Eventually, someone will get a clue.

Remember you are talking about a 12U coach(Parent). Lighting would have to strike and a cow jump over the moon before the light comes on in the Coaching Clue Hat

Duke · #6 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 09:12am

Also, the force is still on at 2B so R1 can be put out by tagging 2B.

CecilOne · #7 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 09:38am

The only way it could be a double play is if the fielder touched the base before the BR and tagged R1 before the runner reached the base going back.

However, if the BR is safe, the fielder can tag R1 out even if R1 is in contact with 1st base.

alwaysask · #8 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 09:40am

With both R1 & BR on base if they had tagged R1 with the ball, even though shes on base, she would have been out, correct?

SamNVa · #9 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 10:24am

Yes, you are correct. When the batter became a batter/runner (BR), R1 was forced to advance to 2nd, so she no longer had a legal right to 1st. As a general rule of thumb, when two runners are both on the same base, have your fielder keep tagging both of them until the umpire calls one of the runners out.

I had an interesting play in a JV game last year. The JV field is tucked in between a parking lot and a large maintenance building, so that the wall of the maintenance building actually forms part of the right outfield fence. There is a line about 20 feet up on the wall, which is the "home-run line". Home coach explains that if the ball hits on or above the line it is a homerun, below the line is in play. My partner (the PU) emphasizes that if the ball bounces off the wall, that it cannot be caught for an out. Both coaches nod in agreement, so we start the game.

Top of the 3rd, the visitors have runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs, when the #4 hitter drives this towering shot off the wall, but well below (~3ft) the HR line. F9 follows the flight of the ball into the wall, and makes a relatively easy catch as it comes off the wall. The 1st base coach (who was at the plate meeting) is yelling for the BR to go to 2nd, meanwhile, the 3rd base coach (who was not at the plate meeting) is yelling for R1 to go back to 2nd. R2, who is now at 2nd, sees runners coming at her from both directions, so she freezes on 2nd and we end up with 3 runners on 2nd base. In the meantime, F9 has played the ball into F4 who dutifully tags all three runners, and I banged two of them out.

After the inning was over, I over heard to two coaches talking and it turns out that the 1st one never told the 2nd one what was discussed in the plate conference.

For the rookies out there, care to offer an opinion on which two runners I called out?

SamC

Edited for typos

[Edited by SamNVa on May 5th, 2003 at 10:35 AM]

AlabamaBlue · #10 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 10:35am

Sam, the 2 that didn't have a right to 2nd base

R1 and BR/R3.

Hmm, that may not be right. R1 for sure because of the force.

emaxos · #11 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 10:37am

I'll guess you tagged R1 and the BR. Seems to me R2 was the only one that had rights to 2nd base. R1 should have advanced to 3rd and the BR to 1st.

CecilOne · #12 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 11:23am

I'm not a rookie, but are you sure you didn't get this play from a TV sitcom?

IRISHMAFIA · #13 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 11:51am

Quote:

Originally posted by SamNVa
Yes, you are correct. When the batter became a batter/runner (BR), R1 was forced to advance to 2nd, so she no longer had a legal right to 1st. As a general rule of thumb, when two runners are both on the same base, have your fielder keep tagging both of them until the umpire calls one of the runners out.

I had an interesting play in a JV game last year. The JV field is tucked in between a parking lot and a large maintenance building, so that the wall of the maintenance building actually forms part of the right outfield fence. There is a line about 20 feet up on the wall, which is the "home-run line". Home coach explains that if the ball hits on or above the line it is a homerun, below the line is in play. My partner (the PU) emphasizes that if the ball bounces off the wall, that it cannot be caught for an out. Both coaches nod in agreement, so we start the game.

Top of the 3rd, the visitors have runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs, when the #4 hitter drives this towering shot off the wall, but well below (~3ft) the HR line. F9 follows the flight of the ball into the wall, and makes a relatively easy catch as it comes off the wall. The 1st base coach (who was at the plate meeting) is yelling for the BR to go to 2nd, meanwhile, the 3rd base coach (who was not at the plate meeting) is yelling for R1 to go back to 2nd. R2, who is now at 2nd, sees runners coming at her from both directions, so she freezes on 2nd and we end up with 3 runners on 2nd base. In the meantime, F9 has played the ball into F4 who dutifully tags all three runners, and I banged two of them out.

After the inning was over, I over heard to two coaches talking and it turns out that the 1st one never told the 2nd one what was discussed in the plate conference.

For the rookies out there, care to offer an opinion on which two runners I called out?

SamC

Edited for typos

[Edited by SamNVa on May 5th, 2003 at 10:35 AM]

In what order where the runners tagged and did R1 ever touch 3B?

CecilOne · #14 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
In what order where the runners tagged and did R1 ever touch 3B?

Are you thinking remove the force if BR/R3 is tagged first, giving R1 dibs on 2nd if R1 hasn't touched 3rd?

ChampaignBlue · #15 (**permalink**) Mon May 05, 2003, 01:35pm

A:If R1 did not touch 3rd then: If anyone but R1 tagged 1st then BR and R2 out. If R1 tagged 1st then R1 out on the force and BR out.

B:If R1 touched 3rd then all forces off and R2 and BR out.