|
Tue May 13, 2003, 03:09pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
In the last two weeks we've had two games with similar situations that I'd like to hear some opinions on.
1) R1 coming home, there is a throw to the plate. F2 receives the ball and makes the tag but drops the ball as the tag is being applied... but picks it up quickly. PU is shielded from the drop and rings up R1. F2 (much to dismay of Coach and parents) tells PU "He's safe, I dropped the ball." PU asks him to repeat it, which he does, and PU changes call to safe. 2) BR moving to get away from high inside pitch. Ball nips the bat but hard to tell if it was bat or helmut. PU calls HBP tells BR to take his base. BR tells PU it hit the bat not him. PU changes call to foul tip. At first I thought these were the best ways to handle the situation, but the more I considered it I became less sure. What if if were the other way around, i.e., 1) F2 says "I didn't drop the ball" when PU thinks he did, and 2) BR says "it hit me not the bat". Would the PU change the calls then? How should you handle something like this?
__________________
Fred 
|
|
Tue May 13, 2003, 03:28pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
In 1959, Walt Disney produced "Moochie of the Little League," in which Moochie the outfielder traps what the umpires rule a catch for the final out of the "championship game," preventing of course the tying and winning runs from scoring in the bottom of the last inning. Moochie, however, confesses to the ump that he in fact did not catch the ball, so the umpires reverse themselves and Moochie's team loses.
Moochie is praised for his honesty, and traditional American values are upheld. Today, I suspect the trial lawyers would soon be involved. I don't fault Disney, but I don't believe it is dishonest for a player to let the umpire call the play. A player is under no moral obligation to inform the umpire that his call was wrong, as is someone guilty of a crime that someone else has been convicted of. There is an ump around here who, when he is not sure whether a ball has hit a batter, simply asks the batter, "Did the ball hit you?" It seems to me that his motives may be good, but he should rule on what he saw and NOT start down the road of letting the players call the game, as in a pickup basketball game where you're "on your honor" to call your own fouls.
__________________
greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
|
|
Tue May 13, 2003, 03:45pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Sitch 1 - I would make sure that I asked for the ball before making a call to ensure that the tag was made and he had the ball.
If F2 says I dropped the ball I would still call what I saw. Sitch 2 - I would call what I thought happened. However, I have learned take your time, react to the play, usually a kid that's hit will react a certain way etc., and then make the call. If I miss it, I miss it, but I'm not changing it. Now, there have been times in local league I've asked a kid later, did that ball hit you and he would say "no", but that's baseball. Ain't it fun. Thanks David Quote:
|
|
Tue May 13, 2003, 04:42pm
|
|||
|
|||
This one can be tough. If I am working solo, bets get it that a ball beating a runner at a base far-far away , D is gonna have advantage.However, timing is very important, wait and see...I tend to make those calls after all play at that base has ended and players are starting to look away...wondering.
Kid honestly telling me he screwed the pooch...."no, kiddo, you made the play", thats if I screwed the pooch and called it too soon....not very often...I get my angles and plays......cheers
|
|
Tue May 13, 2003, 05:11pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
To sit here and tell you what exactly I would have done, or how you are suppose to handle this situation ,is like having me decide who to throw over board my wife or mother, in order to save the ship.
All of this stuff depends on the level of play, importance of game and experience and confidence of the official or officials. I am not sure, but it does not sound as if these games were HS Varsity, American Legion or even SR. League baseball. Most likely LL. I know, there are those that live in this black and white world that will say, it doesn't matter. Well they can stop reading here. First of all, I would have had to be there. But most probably I would have handled the calls the same way. Lets all say this over and over, its only a game , its only a game, its only a game. Those players will remember you more for you human side than your officiating abilty. To me thats more important. We were all Human Beings long before we became officials. Sometimes doing a real good job, is not always by the book.
|
|
Tue May 13, 2003, 05:30pm
|
|||
|
|||
Thank you
When I am in my home league, where I know everyone and everyone knows me, I tend to be less stringent on the "letter of the law" and try to let the kids play without as much interference as possible. In my home league, I probably would have responded the same as the umpire in the post. We need to remember, especially in Little League, why we are there. We are there so the kids can play. Let them play. At more competitive levels, as has been pointed out, we need to be more "professional." Little League, especially during the regular season, is for the kids to have fun and learn baseball. Why, on earth, would the coach and parents be dismayed at a child being honest? That would earn my children a pizza and a coke! Team Sports, at the Little League age level, is to teach the children teamwork, discipline, how that particular sport is played, integrity, and sportsmanship. If the catcher says he dropped the ball and you insist the runner is still out, who looks the fool here? I grant you, it's not the catcher.
Soap Box vacated...
|
|
Wed May 14, 2003, 01:26am
|
|||
|
|||
|
I would never ask a kid anything nor would I listen to him if he offered anything.
I was a handfull when I was a kid. Here is a move I pulled when I played Little League. I got walked alot. I could hit. I also pitched so I didn't get thrown at because everyone knew I would retailiate. I hated getting walked but would not swing at bad pitches. Anyway, the team we were playing, was pitching to me. I was very happy about this. Anyway, here comes an inside pitch that I was expecting a curve and I couldn't get out of the way in time. I hit the deck and the ball hits the bill of the helmet as I am going down. UIC calles a HBP Dead Ball and the fans in the stands and the opposing coach starts screaming foul ball. I'm in the dirt and I hear the umpire say, "hey jerry, did that ball hit you? I wanted another swing so I replied "no sir! That hit the bat sir." The umpire reversed himself and 2 pitches later I rocked a 3 run shot and won the game come from behind 6-5. When it's all said and done either Umpires have to call it this or that. They must make the best and most informed decision between them and the other umpires. Human error is a fact in sports today and if you don't see a ball fall then the kid got lucky. That is all. Sometimes, Kids get lucky. Sometimes umpires miss a call. But an umpire should never be fooled into making the wrong call. Or the right call. It is what it is and that is that.
|
|
Fri May 16, 2003, 07:43am
|
|||
|
|||
|
I hate to admit it (not really), but I've called Ground Rule Doubles, Home Runs and vice-versa on more than one occasion. You know the field . . . short 4' fences; no background. Coaches yelling, "You've got to be kidding!" Fans yelling their usual obscenities and optometric comments, etc. And I've had outfielders tell me that the ball actually did go over on the fly . . . after I've already given two bases to the batter. As an umpire, you've gotta live with what you see and call. In the situation given, I'd tell the youngster, "You held it long enough for the tag, son." and be done with it. Or, "If you did, then I blew it, son. I thought you had it."
It's for the very fact that we ARE human, that makes baseball umpires and the game of baseball itself, such an interesting sport. The game is made up of nine innings, tons of pitches, lots of plays, many coaching decisions . . . all of which contribute to the outcome of the game. To say that a particular call changed the course of the game is illogical . . . each call, right or wrong, is what makes the game. Jerry
|
|
Fri May 16, 2003, 07:56am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
__________________
"A picture is worth a thousand words".
|
|
Fri May 16, 2003, 09:21am
|
|||
|
|||
What about getting the call right?
What happened to getting the call right? Obviously, you have to eat some bad calls. Why eat the ones that are obviously wrong that you can change at the Little League level? Besides, the kids are PLAYING A GAME. Or, have you forgotten? Have the umpires now become more important than letting the kids play the game? At the Little League level, an umpire should be a facilitator, at least during the regular season. Remember, we are TEACHING the kids to play the game, among many other positive character traits. Get off your high horse, or you will end up on the wrong end of it.
|
|
Fri May 16, 2003, 10:02am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Criticism and name-calling rarely accomplishes anything, Mr. Striker. And my comments and OPINIONS had nothing to do with being self-righteous or arrogant.
Making a judgement call (whether it was the "right" call or not)is your responsibility. The "teaching" that I proposed is that kid's learn that officials are not always right! Those are the breaks of the game . . . and something that needs to be learned, at all levels. Rookie umpires (or even the experienced ones)also learn from those "mis-judgements", namely to wait longer, see the ball better, watch for the tag, etc. By changing a judgement call based on the statements of a kid doesn't teach anyone anything, except that for that one, single, solitary play . . . we got it "right". I think you set a bad precendent if you change calls based on what the participants say. Otherwise, who needs an official? Jerry
|
|
Fri May 16, 2003, 10:14am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: What about getting the call right?
Quote:
Umpires umpire games and coaches coach it. That is really the point of it isn't it? That is why they are called coaches. It is the Umpire's RESPONSIBILITY to execute the rules as stated in the rulebook used by the league he is working for, and as interpeted by him. Now things are not always black and white and I understand this. A kid can learn from both negitive and positive reinforcement you know? He learns when he is sucessful and when he fails. When he is right and when he is wrong. When he wins and when he loses. This is the way of both LIFE and BASEBALL, and that in my opinion, is what makes baseball so great. When you umpire the sport of baseball, it is your responsibility to adhere to and execute the rules as they read in the rulebook and as you interpete them, period. That is your RESPONSIBILITY. Last week in a pony game I called, we had a good game going, bottom of the 7th, home team ralleyed 5 runs to tie it 10-10. Had runners on 2nd and 3rd no outs and the pitcher balked. Ask yourself. Would you call it? You HAVE to call it. If you don't, then you should be either coaching or keeping score. It is your RESPONSIBILITY. Just call the game and don't coach it and you will be a better umpire for it. If you wanna coach then coach. It is a great thing to do and I am sure your league could use a caring coach. If I was a coach and you were coaching my kids, I would tell you to mind your own business. Think about that!
|
|
Fri May 16, 2003, 10:58am
|
|||
|
|||
Advantage - disadvantage
Get the calls right and use all the information you can.
If the kid tries to be honest and says the runner should be safe because he dropped the ball, I say let him receive the benefit of being honest (and that benefit is not always to his advantage - as it wasn't in this case). I would ask my partner if he saw the ball dropped. And then independent of his answer probably rule the runner safe... quietly. I might also ask F2 again "Are you sure? Your team is not going to like it." The pitch is a different story. If the pitch is so poor that the batter is ducking and can't get out of the way... I don't care if it ticked his shoelace, the award for that poor of a pitch is a free trip to 1st. As for Fairump/Jerry, I wouldn't have asked to begin with and just yelled dead ball and pointed to 1st. But it hit the bat! Really, you were trying to hit that pitch? I would have disagreed with him but might have allowed him to continue batting if he really wanted too. Although in this case his honesty did prove to his advantage it could just as well have become an out and a disadvantage for his team. The immediate decision to let him continue batting was not immediately to his advantage. The game situation and the level of competition must be included in your decisions... as they are already. Good umpires always incorporate these influences. Umpires are not robots we are people and must act personable and understanding. Sooner or later the game is going to be over and you will be off the field discussing the game with the parents and fans. You can just robot your way to the car and leave, but not if you want to raise your level of acceptance as an umpire and work bigger games. Relax from the robotic appearance and enjoy the game... everyone else will enjoy it more too. 
__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
|
|
Fri May 16, 2003, 11:02am
|
|||
|
|||
Who said anything about coaching?
I never said anything about coaching. And, as much as I would want to say something in a coaching way to a player, I never would. If I see something a player is doing that may lead to a safety violation, I will speak to the coach and let him handle it. However, if they are LEARNING a game, which, in Little League, THEY ARE, we should let them play that way during the regular season. Again, I don't feel I am being arrogant by reminding all of us why we are on the Little League field. It is for the kids. And, if a player feels it is important to bring to my attention that the ball went over the fence on the fly instead of on the bounce, we have a home run. Something so obvious should not be ignored. I have eaten my share of calls and will continue to do so. It is on an extremely rare occasion that I would change a call in this manner.
Let me remind you, I am speaking only of Little League (Majors (11-12)and below), during the regular season. In post-season tournaments and playoffs, the learning time is over and time to get more competitive. Much like school, there is a lesson time and then time for the test. There are no balks at this level, but yes, I would, and do call illegal pitches when I see them, and I also will not hesitate to call a balk in the upper levels. I umpire kids from 11-18 years old. I expect players above majors, in post-season tournaments, and in playoffs to know how to play the game and be properly coached. I would never change a call in those situations based on input from anyone other than my partner, and then only if I asked them. You said: "It is the Umpire's RESPONSIBILITY to execute the rules as stated in the rulebook used by the league he is working for, and as interpeted by him. Now things are not always black and white and I understand this." I agree! The rulebook states a homerun is a batted ball leaving the park on the fly in fair territory. You, for whatever reason, didn't see it (Were you out of position? Where was your partner?). Obviously, the defensive player saw it, and, by your description, so did all the other people on the field and spectating. Why not change your call? Things are not always black and white, and umpires are not always right. When given an opportunity to not be wrong, you should take it. Nothing in the rule book prevents you from doing that (with the exception of certain calls, "foul" being one of them).
|
|
Fri May 16, 2003, 11:16am
|
|||
|
|||
|
"You, for whatever reason, didn't see it (Were you out of position? Where was your partner?). Obviously, the defensive player saw it, and, by your description, so did all the other people on the field and spectating. Why not change your call?"
Because that's one hell of a slippery slope. "Why won't you change your call for what I saw, you changed it last time for what they saw." If you were out of position, and screwed the pooch, take the heat and learn from it. But don't call what you didn't see. If you do, you have to judge who's telling the truth and who isnt' and worse, your making decisions based on someone else's vision. Umpires stopped taking the fans' word for calls over 100 years ago. Thank God.
__________________
GB
|
 |
| Bookmarks |
|
|
Linear Mode
