BR Misses 1st / Beats throw mechanic

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Simply give a safe signal if the BR did indeed beat the throw, "aquiring" the base. It now becomes an appeal play and it's up to the defense to recognize that an proper appeal must be made. Then you would make your ruling.

Thank you.
I'm still looking for NFHS documentation as I am in a discussion with a few HS baseball umpires who insist that an (immediate out call is the correct mechanic.
My word carries no weight. ;-)

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Thank you.
I'm still looking for NFHS documentation as I am in a discussion with a few HS baseball umpires who insist that an (immediate out call is the correct mechanic.
My word carries no weight. ;-)

NFHS Baseball Umpires Manual, p. 35: the umpire should make no signal that would tip either team to a baserunning error.

If you fail to signal that the runner beat the ball, you will signal the defense that the runner missed the base. Thus the proper mechanic is to signal "safe" and rule on any properly constituted subsequent appeal.

[Rich Ives]

It's a missed base. Treat it as such.

[rbmartin]

What if time is called before the overrunning BR can return to 1b or before the defense can properly appeal?

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

What if time is called before the overrunning BR can return to 1b or before the defense can properly appeal?

Then the umpire has just screwed up and you have to place the B/R on first base. By calling time, you did not give the B/R an opportunity to complete his baserunning responsibilities.

Hugo, I know that you emailed me about this last week. I searched through all the FED materials I have on hand and all I could come up with is what mbyron posted above from the FED Baseball Umpires Manual...then I forgot to email you back.

But I suppose your doubting colleagues might need more than that. If they don't get the basic premise that a runner passing a base is assumed to have aquired it, pending an appeal, then I'm sure they want an interpretation spelled out and wrapped up in a tidy little bow to convince them otherwise. I couldn't find such a reference for FED.

The Major League Baseball Umpires Manual spells this out exactly as has been stated- signal the B/R safe, then wait for an appeal.

[justanotherblue]

I don't have it with me however, Jaksa/Roder covers this play. You'll need to explain to them the difference between aquiring a base vs. touching a base. Until they understand this concept, they'll never get it.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Then the umpire has just screwed up and you have to place the B/R on first base. By calling time, you did not give the B/R an opportunity to complete his baserunning responsibilities.

Hugo, I know that you emailed me about this last week. I searched through all the FED materials I have on hand and all I could come up with is what mbyron posted above from the FED Baseball Umpires Manual...then I forgot to email you back.

But I suppose your doubting colleagues might need more than that. If they don't get the basic premise that a runner passing a base is assumed to have aquired it, pending an appeal, then I'm sure they want an interpretation spelled out and wrapped up in a tidy little bow to convince them otherwise. I couldn't find such a reference for FED.

The Major League Baseball Umpires Manual spells this out exactly as has been stated- signal the B/R safe, then wait for an appeal.

Bret, you hit the nail on the head...
I have posted this several places and did get the MLB Umpire manual quote which I just emailed to one of them.
Of course, the comment was that they were talking about NFHS,,,

It appears (so far), from inquiring on several boards, that NFHS does not spell it out word for word, nor have a reference to something like " a player who has reached/passed a base is treated as if they touched the base"

Maybe one day they'll get it.
The good thing is - I don't do baseball with them!

[CT1]

At one time, FED had a case play which included the concept of an "unintentional" appeal. That is, if a runner (or B/R) missed a base but any fielder with the ball subsequently touched the missed base, the runner was out by appeal.

PLAY: R1. B2 hits a clean single to center, and R1 goes to third, missing second in the process. F8 throws the ball in to F4 who is standing on second base.

I haven't called FED rules in a few years, but I believe that concept has since been removed.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Bret, you hit the nail on the head...
I have posted this several places and did get the MLB Umpire manual quote which I just emailed to one of them.
Of course, the comment was that they were talking about NFHS,,,

It appears (so far), from inquiring on several boards, that NFHS does not spell it out word for word, nor have a reference to something like " a player who has reached/passed a base is treated as if they touched the base"

Maybe one day they'll get it.
The good thing is - I don't do baseball with them!

Maybe you can get them to realize that's it's a missed base and on a missed base the runner is safe unless appealed.

That concept IS in FED.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

What if time is called before the overrunning BR can return to 1b or before the defense can properly appeal?

Don't grant time. If you did, you kind of screwed up.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Don't grant time. If you did, you kind of screwed up.

Disagree in Fed. What if it's the defense requesting time to execute a dead ball appeal?

[BretMan]

Then you still shouldn't be granting time before the play is over- and it's not over until you've given the runner the opportunity to correct his base running mistake or he's stopped running.

Really...would you grant time on any other play when runners haven't finished running the bases and were still in jeopardy?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

It's a missed base. Treat it as such.

Please enlighten us as to how to treat it as such per NFHS? I am not sure what you are trying to say.

MTD, Sr.