BR Beats Throw to 1B but misses Base

[Phil Vivenzio]

I know that this subject has been beatin to death over the last year or so, but I got into a discussion at my last association meeting with a prevous president who happend to be my instructor when I was studying to become an umpire. In OBR if a Batter Runner beats the throw to F3, but misses 1B, I stated that the umpire make a safe call the same as if a runner missed any base, if the F3 appeals that the runner missed the base and that f3 either touches the base or tags the runner prior to returning to the base that only then do you call an out. My friend argued that you make no call and wait for the appeal. I argued that by making no call you are giving the defense an advantage because you are aleerting them that there is something amok.
In Fed, would i be correct is calling the BR safe, but then calling the immediate out for missing the base(Fed if the ump sees an missed base he/she calls it)?

Any thoughts?

Regards
Phil Vivenzio

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Phil Vivenzio
I know that this subject has been beatin to death over the last year or so, but I got into a discussion at my last association meeting with a prevous president who happend to be my instructor when I was studying to become an umpire. In OBR if a Batter Runner beats the throw to F3, but misses 1B, I stated that the umpire make a safe call the same as if a runner missed any base, if the F3 appeals that the runner missed the base and that f3 either touches the base or tags the runner prior to returning to the base that only then do you call an out. My friend argued that you make no call and wait for the appeal. I argued that by making no call you are giving the defense an advantage because you are aleerting them that there is something amok.
In Fed, would i be correct is calling the BR safe, but then calling the immediate out for missing the base(Fed if the ump sees an missed base he/she calls it)?

Any thoughts?

Regards
Phil Vivenzio

You're right in OBR.

In FED, you don't call the runner out until all action has ended (it hasn't yet in this play). You could, though, have the "accidental" appeal. If F3 steps on the base, even clearly after BR has passed (and missed) it, BR is out.

[PAblue87]

You cannot call the immediate out because the ball is still live. It makes sense to signal nothing. In this case he is not safe, because he missed the base and he is not out. Do not make a call until there is something to call. Wait til he is touched or returns to touch the base.

[Thane Yennie]

I believe the correct mechanic is to call him safe and wait for the appeal. Hopefully it will happen before the BR returns to first. When the play is at home and the runner misses the plate it is a no-call until such time the runner is tagged out, appeal is made or the runner returns to touch the plate.

[David Van Milligen]

You are not giving an advantage or disadvantage to ether team. If you call safe to "keep it fair" and the ball gets away, or the ball is thrown to another base for a play on another runner and the BR goes to second thinking he was safe at first. In Fed you then call him out at the end of play, in others you call him out after the apeal. Now how many coaches do you throw out to get the game going. It is your job to call safe, or out only when they are safe or out.

[PAblue87]

But he is not "SAFE". In order to be safe he must beat the ball to the base and that has not happened. I still think you wait. Most likely, if there is no call both players will realize what happened and try to either get back to the base or tag the runner.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by PAblue87
But he is not "SAFE". In order to be safe he must beat the ball to the base and that has not happened. I still think you wait. Most likely, if there is no call both players will realize what happened and try to either get back to the base or tag the runner.

This play has been beaten to death. At every level but FED, the correct mechanic is to signal "Safe." One may not like that, but it is the accepted pro method. Here's the necessary "evidence":

The batter-runner beats the throw to 1st base by a full step, but he did not touch the base as he crossed it. He is past the base when the ball arrives. The 1st baseman takes the late throw while touching the base. Is the runner out?
RULING: This runner should be ruled “safe” as he has passed the base. This becomes an appeal play and requires the fielder to lodge an appeal in a timely and unmistakable manner. The 1st baseman can retire the B-R by tagging him or by tagging the base on the appeal. (Professional Interpretation) (JEA 7:56)

The reason is obvious, and it has nothing to do with "coaching" or "helping the defense" or "helping the offense." It's a mechanic rooted in the tradition of baseball, which says that a runner who beats the play is safe. Should he miss the base, that error may be appealed.

Here's an example that will illustrate the point:

Play: Two out, bases loaded, roller to short, but his throw pulls F4 off the base. R3 scores, R2 tries to score but is thrown out. R1 has continued to occupy third at the time of the third out.

The umpire in all likelihood will have signaled "safe -- off the base" as the play occurred at second. The fact he called R1 safe does not relieve R1 of the responsibility to touch second. But play continues as if he did, and R3's run scores unless the defense returns to appeal R1 missed second.

The same appeal is available to the defense when the B-R misses first.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Mar 17th, 2001 at 12:17 AM]

[David Van Milligen]

I am sorry, I only do FED. With your reputation I can only assume you are correct in other then FED. But when you say
"The batter-runner beats the throw to 1st base by a full step, but he did not touch the base as he crossed it. He is past the base when the ball arrives. The 1st baseman takes the late throw while touching the base. Is the runner out?"
Ths correct answer in FED is "YES". Case Book see 8.2.1 Comment and 8.2.3.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by David Van Milligen
I am sorry, I only do FED. With your reputation I can only assume you are correct in other then FED. But when you say
"The batter-runner beats the throw to 1st base by a full step, but he did not touch the base as he crossed it. He is past the base when the ball arrives. The 1st baseman takes the late throw while touching the base. Is the runner out?"
Ths correct answer in FED is "YES". Case Book see 8.2.1 Comment and 8.2.3.

You are correct, in both your assumption and ruling. This is the natural result of the FED philosophy on missed bases. In FED, the late throw to first amounts to an "accidental appeal" of missed first base. The umpire will likely call the out as normal but explain: "He never touched first!" or something to that effect.

[Thane Yennie]

I requested an answer to our dilemma from Scott Ehret, here are his thoughts:

"The best instruction I have heard on your basic play is twofold: 1)the runner is not yet retired; 2) the umpire should do nothing to indicate to either team that a baserunning violation has occured. If you can accept those fundamentals the rest becomes quite easy.

Since the runner is not out, the umpire will not signal an out (obvious.) If in the umpire's judgement the play is 'close enough that players, coaches or spectators expect the umpire to make a decision,' the umpire will signal safe. This course of action is required by point 2 above. That's the case if the runner 'just' beats the throw or if the fielder is pulled slightly off the base by the throw. However, if it is obvious to anyone watching the play that the defense did not retire B1, the umpire will make no signal. There's no need for a signal. Everyone 'knows' the runner is safe (even if they do not know the runner is in jeopardy)."

So that is the take from the guys in the big show. Reinforces what Papa C stated earlier.