dropped 3rd strike

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The EASY way to fix this messy nonsense with umpires making signals to people that can't see them (Strybel ... why would signalling safe help any player).

I assume that those of us who do are emulating what we see the big boys and our NCAA partners use. It works for us. If you prefer calling "Strike three, batter out." go for it. Do you also alert the batter to a walk by saying, "Ball four, take your base."?

I said it before, use the mechanic that makes you comfortable.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I assume that those of us who do are emulating what we see the big boys and our NCAA partners use. It works for us. If you prefer calling "Strike three, batter out." go for it. Do you also alert the batter to a walk by saying, "Ball four, take your base."?

I said it before, use the mechanic that makes you comfortable.

I know you love misunderstanding me on purpose, but I think I was pretty clear that this was NOT what I actually do, but rather what we SHOULD do (or more accurately, what we should be TOLD to do by TPTB). After all, the batter is (or is not) in fact, out --- why the aversion to saying so, especially when it makes the whole scenario we're discussing a LOT cleaner.

But no, until this ACTUALLY changes, I'll do it "right".

(On ball four, no, I never say Take your base. Just ball. I'm not giving them a head start... on occasion (especially lower level ball), if batter does nothing and the ball is already back to pitcher, I might nudge with a very quiet, "that's four", but only if coaches aren't already doing so. That's rare though.)

[MikeStrybel]

I did not misunderstand you. Others took issues with what you wrote as well.

I don't work lower level ball so I see no reason to tell a batter what is happening, ball four or dropped third strike. They have coaches.

I lived in Texas for a few years and worked baseball. I never saw umpires do what you suggest they should. Then again, they weren't working lower level ball.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I see no reason to tell a batter what is happening, ball four or dropped third strike. They have coaches.

I believe you are confusing coaching with announcing an important and necessary judgment decision - catch/no catch. Coaches do not make this decision. The players (especially the batter and the catcher) are entitled to know the umpire's call the instant he makes it, not relayed from a coach 90 feet away or in the dugout.

You see no reason to tell a batter the 3rd strike was not caught. I see no reason NOT to tell him.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I believe you are confusing coaching with announcing an important and necessary judgment decision - catch/no catch. Coaches do not make this decision. The players (especially the batter and the catcher) are entitled to know the umpire's call the instant he makes it, not relayed from a coach 90 feet away or in the dugout.

You see no reason to tell a batter the 3rd strike was not caught. I see no reason NOT to tell him.

No, I am not. As stated several times now, I will call the half swing and the field will know. It is incumbent upon the batter to know what to do when the catcher lets the pitch go uncaught. He and his coaches can just as easily see my signals. I tend to move out and away from the normal stance on D3Ks. The pitcher and infield can also see my mechanic and are usually just as quick to point out that the catcher needs to recover the ball.

If you want to help the batter, go ahead. I signal what I saw and let the coaches tell them what to do.

[Kaliix]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

No, I am not. As stated several times now, I will call the half swing and the field will know. It is incumbent upon the batter to know what to do when the catcher lets the pitch go uncaught. He and his coaches can just as easily see my signals. I tend to move out and away from the normal stance on D3Ks. The pitcher and infield can also see my mechanic and are usually just as quick to point out that the catcher needs to recover the ball.

If you want to help the batter, go ahead. I signal what I saw and let the coaches tell them what to do.

So I am following this thread and want to confirm that for this situation [half swing, possible strike three with the possibility a dropped 3rd strike] you would 1)signal strike (I would point as a hammer indicates an out) while at the same time verbalizing strike, 2) followed by a safe sign, no verbalization?

Is that right?

[BigUmp56]

I think I'm with Mike on this one, as I use the same mechanic he does. I call the pitch, and then step back and away to my right while giving the safe signal, without a verbal. My take is that the batter now knows I called the third strike on the half swing, and it's up to him to take off for first or not. I'm not going to alert him to it.

Tim.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

So I am following this thread and want to confirm that for this situation [half swing, possible strike three with the possibility a dropped 3rd strike] you would 1)signal strike (I would point as a hammer indicates an out) while at the same time verbalizing strike, 2) followed by a safe sign, no verbalization?

Is that right?

I typically will say "Yes, he did." or "Swing" while signalling with a point towards the plate. The whole field will know it is a strike call. On an uncaught pitch, I typically take a step away from the action (especially if the ball gets away) and signal safe. I'm 6'4" and 230# so I am easily seen by players and coaches alike. As stated a couple times prior, the pitcher and infield always react to a D3K situation at the levels of ball I umpire. The catchers know when they catch the ball too. Since I work hard to track the pitch to the mitt, I don't have problems selling this call. If I am up and looking at the play, they will know what to do. You can see this same mechanic used in by CWS and many MLB umpires. If it is good enough for them, I think I am pretty safe using it. The guy who taught me to say "Ball down." on trouble plays worked a couple CWS. He also uses the mechanic I just wrote about. Above 12U, it works just fine. Lower level players may need the prompting though.

If the pitch is caught on a swinging strike three, I use a 'gentle' hammer - fist closed and a short sweep down while saying "Out" just loud enough for the catcher and batter to hear. There's no need to embarrass the batter with more than that.

I love the quote. A buddy of mine always closes his clinics by saying, I am primed to umpire after 20 years of marriage. I know nothing and am yelled at for everything.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

So I am following this thread and want to confirm that for this situation [half swing, possible strike three with the possibility a dropped 3rd strike] you would 1)signal strike (I would point as a hammer indicates an out) while at the same time verbalizing strike, 2) followed by a safe sign, no verbalization?

Is that right?

Kaliix,

Almost, not quite.

1. On a "checked swing" that I, as PU, judge a strike, I usually say, "Yes, he did!" and point the strike. (I don't use a hammer either, same reason as you.)

2. If the catcher did not legally catch the pitch I verbalize "NO catch!", accompanied by the safe sign, as is currently taught in all credible umpire schools, just as it states in the Evans manual quote I posted from earlier in this thread.

JM

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I did not misunderstand you. Others took issues with what you wrote as well.

others didn't make smart@$$ inferences like, "If you prefer calling "Strike three, batter out." go for it. Do you also alert the batter to a walk by saying, "Ball four, take your base."?"

I lived in Texas for a few years and worked baseball. I never saw umpires do what you suggest they should. Then again, they weren't working lower level ball.

Wow, you're thick. Did I say they did? Did I say I did? Good god.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

others didn't make smart@$$ inferences like, "If you prefer calling "Strike three, batter out." go for it. Do you also alert the batter to a walk by saying, "Ball four, take your base."?"

Wow, you're thick. Did I say they did? Did I say I did? Good god.

Really. You said you like to call the out. Good for you. Others asked why you do that. After reading your smarta$$ comments on this forum, one would think you'd know better than to display thin skin.

Some seem to think that it is acceptable to alert the batter to a D3K. JE may teach it but plenty of the best umpires in the world ignore that advice and call it like I do. If your assignor/partner(s), league. association, team wants you to do it, go for it. I provided an example of a batter walking away after a hard swing, disgusted at the miss he is a step out of the box when you say, "No catch." The ball is on it's way to the backstop, the runner on third is coming home and the batter realizes he has another life, thanks to you. The run scores and he is safe. The defensive coach is now a foot from your face wanting to know why you prompted him. Be sure to have the JE book there to show him.

Meanwhile, on my field, the same thing happens and I have an out once Junior strides away from the dish. I don't feel the need to coach. The offensive coach will be pissed - at his player, for forgetting what to do.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Really. You said you like to call the out. Good for you.

Not sure why I try... maybe I'll stop.

For about the fourth time... no - I did NOT say that. Your propensity for putting words into other peoples mouths might work in your regular life - but it's rather stupid on line, don't you think, considering that the words the other person said are right there for everyone to read.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not sure why I try... maybe I'll stop.

For about the fourth time... no - I did NOT say that. Your propensity for putting words into other peoples mouths might work in your regular life - but it's rather stupid on line, don't you think, considering that the words the other person said are right there for everyone to read.

from mbcrowder post #46 of this thread:

What in the world would be wrong with simply using the word OUT when we have an out... just like every other time that we have an OUT. For some reason, those loftier than me think it's bad form to tell the batter they are out when they are, indeed, out.

The EASY way to fix this messy nonsense with umpires making signals to people that can't see them (Strybel ... why would signalling safe help any player), or having different calls (catch, no catch, NO NO, "ball on the ground!" (Really!?!?!)) etc is to SIMPLY call batters that are out on a caught 3rd strike OUT! If you don't say OUT, they are not out. Easy. Catcher's batters, etc can hear you say OUT, and can react if you don't. (PS - this would also help in the batter running to first to confuse matters with less than 2 outs and a runner on first - saying OUT clearly clears up this sitch too).

You are right, it is difficult to pretend you didn't write something when the words are right there for everyone to read. Thanks for illustrating the point. I feel no need to put words in your mouth.