LLWS umpires need to take a page from NFL refs.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think anyone here has a problem with the umpires, but the system that insists on hiring people that do no more than put on a uniform. They could find or require guys to do more to get to that level. Again, your games are on national TV, not cable access when you get to Williamsport. I am sure the ESPN people are getting paid to be there. Why would the umpires not get paid anything? Not saying you need to get them rich, but respect what they provide to your event.

Peace

I know you'll probably be surprised, but I disagree with you. Keeping LL volunteer only means there will only be people there that want to be there and not striving simply to earn a paycheck.

Sure, maybe Little League hands out some assignments as if they are gold watches for years served (and sometimes those years served are not in capacity as an umpire), but that happens in a lot of tournaments with "prestigious" assignments. It happens here at the HS state tournament level, where one can only shake a head a some of the people chosen.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I know you'll probably be surprised, but I disagree with you. Keeping LL volunteer only means there will only be people there that want to be there and not striving simply to earn a paycheck.

I'm sure you really didn't mean this as an exclusive "either/or" statement. Certainly you don't believe all umpires who receive compensation are "striving simply to earn a paycheck."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I know you'll probably be surprised, but I disagree with you. Keeping LL volunteer only means there will only be people there that want to be there and not striving simply to earn a paycheck.

Rich, they get paid in many sanctioned games now. I used to work LL several years ago and every game was assigned by a local park district and we were paid every single game. We were not making a killing, but it was something for our time. And I am not talking about paying them for a pay check to get a lot of money, but you cannot take care of their expenses while they are there and put some money in their pocket for the experience? All that does is eliminate those that would like to work but have jobs, and other obligations to eliminate those to want to work because they have to come out of their own pockets to get to Williamsport. And the product on the field reflects that right now.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Sure, maybe Little League hands out some assignments as if they are gold watches for years served (and sometimes those years served are not in capacity as an umpire), but that happens in a lot of tournaments with "prestigious" assignments. It happens here at the HS state tournament level, where one can only shake a head a some of the people chosen.

You do not have to take away that part of it completely. But you should have people that are trained better. And at least the State Finals has people that are being chosen by a much more extensive process than I ever see at this level. And a state final does not have world wide eyes. Is it too much to ask for the people to not embarrass your organization every year?

Peace

[LMan]

When you umpire on national TV with ~ 40k in the stands, the 'let's not pick on the volunteers' mantra is gone. Doesn't matter how many years you've given to LL, at that level you better be able to perform and take criticism in equal measure. Asking batters while on ESPN about which one was last at bat is horse-pucky.

IMO, getting a free pass in LL umpiring dies when the TV cameras switch on, the Frosted Flakes commercials start blaring, and Nomar starts jabbering his nonsense.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LMan

When you umpire on national TV with ~ 40k in the stands, the 'let's not pick on the volunteers' mantra is gone. Doesn't matter how many years you've given to LL, at that level you better be able to perform and take criticism in equal measure. Asking batters while on ESPN about which one was last at bat is horse-pucky.

IMO, getting a free pass in LL umpiring dies when the TV cameras switch on, the Frosted Flakes commercials start blaring, and Nomar starts jabbering his nonsense.

And I agree with this. Should I ever be selected to work WP, I offer no excuses for my work and any mistakes I make. I don't want to be called a "volunteer umpire" as if that makes it OK. My calls and my game management must be as good, IMO, as if I was working any other nationally televised game. LL, however, selects the umpires and their selection process doesn't seem to have changed much in the past 10 years (my involvement with Little League is just over 10 years -- I've umpired a lot longer than that). I don't know why we talk about this every year like we expect it to change.

I worked a championship game at a different Little League World Series on an ESPN network on Saturday afternoon. After the first pitch, it was just another game with the exception of the slightly longer than normal inning breaks.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And I agree with this. Should I ever be selected to work WP, I offer no excuses for my work and any mistakes I make. I don't want to be called a "volunteer umpire" as if that makes it OK. My calls and my game management must be as good, IMO, as if I was working any other nationally televised game. LL, however, selects the umpires and their selection process doesn't seem to have changed much in the past 10 years (my involvement with Little League is just over 10 years -- I've umpired a lot longer than that). I don't know why we talk about this every year like we expect it to change.

I worked a championship game at a different Little League World Series on an ESPN network on Saturday afternoon. After the first pitch, it was just another game with the exception of the slightly longer than normal inning breaks.

Was that the game where a LL facebook post had thunder in the area to start the game? Was a lightning detector used? Or was it a fast moving away from venue cell/cells that those in charge judged was not going to be a problem?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Rich, they get paid in many sanctioned games now. I used to work LL several years ago and every game was assigned by a local park district and we were paid every single game. We were not making a killing, but it was something for our time. And I am not talking about paying them for a pay check to get a lot of money, but you cannot take care of their expenses while they are there and put some money in their pocket for the experience? All that does is eliminate those that would like to work but have jobs, and other obligations to eliminate those to want to work because they have to come out of their own pockets to get to Williamsport. And the product on the field reflects that right now.

No, that part of the product does NOT reflect that. You're wrong, completely wrong, IMO..

It's the selection process, not the availability of quality umpires. LL will still select the one year veteran 35 times over whether he's paid or not. It's a gold watch (or more accurately, a LL WS Participant medal) for a number of people every year. Paying LL umpires for these games - what will that solve? It will bring people in that wouldn't work the games without that paycheck, that's all.

I did get some expenses reimbursed, BTW, for my trip to Bangor for the Senior World Series. We got a hotel room, 2 meals a day, and my district gave me money to put towards gas for the trip. Yes, I'm still out a considerable amount of money, but I'm not complaining.

It's part of the gig. I make good money officiating other baseball and other sports and it's my choice whether or not I work LL or not. I know the terms. And I don't think the quality of umpires selected would improve if those guys were paid and if their travel expenses were covered.

BTW, I would pay the travel expenses for the umpires if I was king. The coaches and teams all get flown to the tournaments. As of right now, the only people involved that have to pay to get there are the umpires and that part I *would* fix.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

No, that part of the product does NOT reflect that. You're wrong, completely wrong, IMO..

It's the selection process, not the availability of quality umpires. LL will still select the one year veteran 35 times over whether he's paid or not. It's a gold watch (or more accurately, a LL WS Participant medal) for a number of people every year. Paying LL umpires for these games - what will that solve? It will bring people in that wouldn't work the games without that paycheck, that's all.

I did not expect you to agree, you are a lot closer to that situation than I will ever be. And if they are satisfied with the guy that has worked 35 years but looks like hell, then so be it. But then they will continue to get criticized by folks here and in the media when they cannot get simple plays right.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I did get some expenses reimbursed, BTW, for my trip to Bangor for the Senior World Series. We got a hotel room, 2 meals a day, and my district gave me money to put towards gas for the trip. Yes, I'm still out a considerable amount of money, but I'm not complaining.

In this economy that will eliminate a lot of good people right or wrong.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's part of the gig. I make good money officiating other baseball and other sports and it's my choice whether or not I work LL or not. I know the terms. And I don't think the quality of umpires selected would improve if those guys were paid and if their travel expenses were covered.

We all know the terms when we accept games. I have heard you say you will not accept the terms to work other levels in other sports because the overall cost is not worth it to you. That is all I am saying here, they have eliminated people because they have to choose if working that level is worth the hundreds of dollars (or thousands) to work a game when everyone is getting fat off the TV money and sponsorships.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

BTW, I would pay the travel expenses for the umpires if I was king. The coaches and teams all get flown to the tournaments. As of right now, the only people involved that have to pay to get there are the umpires and that part I *would* fix.

And that is my point. I have to pay my expenses to work a tournament that sponsors are paying millions to the other participants so they can have a tournament. Why not let the kids call balls and strikes if we are so not important in the games? I did not say you had to give every umpire $1000 a game. I said pay them so they do not have to come out of their pocket just to work a game. And because of that there are folks that work LL that have been paid all year long now say "Why bother" in the biggest games of the year for that organization. Something is wrong with that IMO.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And because of that there are folks that work LL that have been paid all year long now say "Why bother" in the biggest games of the year for that organization. Something is wrong with that IMO.

Except that receiving a game fee for Little League is supposed to eliminate an umpire for consideration. It's a question on the application form.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Except that receiving a game fee for Little League is supposed to eliminate an umpire for consideration. It's a question on the application form.

Again, another dumb requirement by LL. When I worked LL back in the day we were not given a "choice" to take money or not. I did not even realize that that "volunteerism" was expected by the LL. In order to work all levels the park district took care of everything and we were assigned to games based more on availability rather than what we choose to do. So when we were assigned those games, we just took them. Also we had taxes taken out of our checks as we would make hundreds of dollars during the spring and summer. No one said to give the money back or to donate that fee. And I do know of a person that has wanted to work higher levels and I am sure he took money at some point. Maybe he does not now, but he had to at one time. And now they are making people lie just to adhere to some silly standard that umpires have to choose to work a game for pay and not get any money. I am sure there are leagues would not get any umpires if they did not pay their umpires. You cannot honestly believe this is the best system for selecting the best umpires Rich?

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by DeejABlu

Yeah and bring it up on the table instead of being hypocrites and turning their backs on under the table payoffs locally.

Under the table? Reimbursements for expenses and gear purchases are encouraged by LL. It's what they suggest for retaining umpires. LL isn't saying that umpires shouldn't receive gear or gas reimbursements or uniforms or training or anything like that.

It's not, despite what people think, a vow to take nothing but a hot dog and a coke after the game.

[UmpTTS43]

I commend the men and women working the LLWS at all age levels. They have put in the time and commitment into an avocation that I'm sure they all love. Cudos to them for getting the opportunity.

That being said, the LL system concerning umpires needs to be addressed. I could care less about the pay v no pay sitch. I would love to see LL provide more training opportunities for the umpires that choose this path in order to make them the best umpires they can be.

I am not a LL umpire. Maybe this is already the case. It just seems that the level of umpiring is not evolving at the same pace the level of play is. If LL is to be proud of their product as a whole, it should include the officials as well.

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

I commend the men and women working the LLWS at all age levels. They have put in the time and commitment into an avocation that I'm sure they all love. Cudos to them for getting the opportunity.

That being said, the LL system concerning umpires needs to be addressed. I could care less about the pay v no pay sitch. I would love to see LL provide more training opportunities for the umpires that choose this path in order to make them the best umpires they can be.

I am not a LL umpire. Maybe this is already the case. It just seems that the level of umpiring is not evolving at the same pace the level of play is. If LL is to be proud of their product as a whole, it should include the officials as well.

Part of the problem here is that many of the Smittys we see on the field run the regional ump clinics. What can anyone learn from them?

A friend of mine went to one, led by a wizened WP bigwig ump. He took the whole weekend to read the rulebook to the class.

And on the "pay" thing, I think each league should arrange for their own umpires, paid or not. For all regional and WS tourneys, I think umps should have all expenses paid, including transportation.

As I've said before, many of these "veterans" wouldn't touch a Babe Ruth game, much less a high school tussle.

The upper echelons need more guys like Fronnie: experienced at various levels, but with a subspecialty in LL--knowledgeable of its vagaries.

I agree with the posters who, in essence, say, "It's on national TV, with the best youth players in the world. Why not have the best umpires?"

Ace
DustVest in storage

[THoy]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

I commend the men and women working the LLWS at all age levels. They have put in the time and commitment into an avocation that I'm sure they all love. Cudos to them for getting the opportunity.

That being said, the LL system concerning umpires needs to be addressed. I could care less about the pay v no pay sitch. I would love to see LL provide more training opportunities for the umpires that choose this path in order to make them the best umpires they can be.

I am not a LL umpire. Maybe this is already the case. It just seems that the level of umpiring is not evolving at the same pace the level of play is. If LL is to be proud of their product as a whole, it should include the officials as well.

The system is being improved yearly. In the West, in order to be considered for the higher levels of tournament you must attended a week long school patterned after the pro schools (rules in AM, cage work, and field work). You are evaluated in regional tournaments and then recommended. The volunteer requirement is a component of LL that has been around since its inception..its part of the entire philosophy. Just because people want a piece of the corporate pie doesn't make it wrong for LL to expect volunteerism. Can people be dishonest and secure a spot at the Series....sure..but thats on them. If someone justifies it as "stupid" to have to be a volunteer thats fine....IMHO if you dont believe in the program...dont be a part of it....and moreover if your getting paid somewhere else why do you care? Either do your part to improve the system or dont worry about it.

People talk about the "level of umpiring" at the LL level being horrible...I see mistakes being made at ALL levels. People talk about a rating system for umpires at MLB, then when it is instituted, mistakes are made in post season. Its part of the game at ALL levels, no matter how you slice it, paid or not. Its going to take time and people wanting to get better.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by DeejABlu

Can you show that on the LL site?

Did you miss the part where it's OK to buy the umpires uniforms and gear?

http://www.littleleague.org/umpires/whereareumpires.htm

Keep new umpires’ costs down by supplying some or all the equipment they need. Don’t make them buy a bunch of equipment and uniforms at the beginning of their career.

Provide rule books, patches, equipment, etc., for umpires. Start with a community set of equipment that everyone uses. Then progress to those that return or agree to umpire so many games will get a mask, more games will get a chest protector, etc.