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-   -   LLWS umpires need to take a page from NFL refs. (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/79000-llws-umpires-need-take-page-nfl-refs.html)

TwoBits Sat Aug 20, 2011 08:45pm

LLWS umpires need to take a page from NFL refs.
 
For the second night in a row, the Pennsylvania team loses a hit and a potential run when a fair ball is ruled foul by one of the SIX umpires. I don't understand why they wouldn't let the play play itself out before going to instant replay to review.

BigUmp56 Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoBits (Post 782497)
For the second night in a row, the Pennsylvania team loses a hit and a potential run when a fair ball is ruled foul by one of the SIX umpires. I don't understand why they wouldn't let the play play itself out before going to instant replay to review.

I thought they explained pretty well why they wouldn't allow a "foul" call to be reviewed.

Tim.

TwoBits Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigUmp56 (Post 782644)
I thought they explained pretty well why they wouldn't allow a "foul" call to be reviewed.

Tim.

That they did. The Little League baseball announcers usually do a very good job at that, and much better than your typical home team baseball announcer (and definitely better ANY televised softball announcer!)

JRutledge Sun Aug 21, 2011 02:58pm

If they train them better or pay umpires (who are experienced and have knowledge of their field responsibilities) they might not have to worry about replay on these kinds of plays or doing what the NFL does.

Peace

TwoBits Sun Aug 21, 2011 03:18pm

Does LL have a training program or do their officials receive training elsewhere?

I can't say all of the umpires I've seen in past years have had little training. Florence Stansbury, the first (only?) woman to have umpired home plate in the LLWS championship game lives 100 miles south of me, and I've had the privilege of working with her in FED baseball. She has also officiating the women's CWS.

(end shameless name drop) :D

I was pleased to see the officiating crew correctly take a run off the board on a bases loaded, 1 out play in the Canada-Venezuela game. Venezuelan batter hit a hot grounder to third, F5 stepped on third for the second out and threw home in attempt to retire R3, but F2 did not apply the tag, apparently scoring the run. However, R1 had retreated back to first instead of advancing to second. The defense, recognizing the base running error, threw to second and tagged (not forced) R1 between first and second for the third out. While the announcers and the Venezuelan coaches wanted the run to score, the umpires correctly ruled the run did not score since the third out was made by a runner before reaching the base he was forced to.

JRutledge Sun Aug 21, 2011 04:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoBits (Post 782697)
Does LL have a training program or do their officials receive training elsewhere?

I can't say all of the umpires I've seen in past years have had little training. Florence Stansbury, the first (only?) woman to have umpired home plate in the LLWS championship game lives 100 miles south of me, and I've had the privilege of working with her in FED baseball. She has also officiating the women's CWS.

(end shameless name drop) :D

I worked with in my state finals in baseball with a umpire that had the previous year worked the LLWS. Not all of these umpires are terrible, but many of the mechanics we see or basic things are not signs of well trained umpires. This play was a suggestion that either no one talked about basic mechanics or this was never discussed in a training or meeting.

Peace

Rich Sun Aug 21, 2011 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 782709)
I worked with in my state finals in baseball with a umpire that had the previous year worked the LLWS. Not all of these umpires are terrible, but many of the mechanics we see or basic things are not signs of well trained umpires. This play was a suggestion that either no one talked about basic mechanics or this was never discussed in a training or meeting.

Peace

Or someone simply made a mistake. Unfortunately, with so many poorly trained umpires there, the assumption is that every error is because of a lack of training.

The guy that called foul is one of the top umpires in the Western Region and an instructor who owned his mistake on his blog the next day. He said he failed to follow his own teaching -- to know your responsibilities. Personally, I think 6-man causes more problems than it solves -- on any size field. I'd never schedule 6 umpires if I was king.

JRutledge Sun Aug 21, 2011 05:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 782715)
Or someone simply made a mistake. Unfortunately, with so many poorly trained umpires there, the assumption is that every error is because of a lack of training.

You are right it could of been, but there are too many of these mistakes to chalk it up to just a mistake all the time. Every year we see many big time mistakes that do not happen with even the inexperienced umpires in games I see during the HS season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 782715)
The guy that called foul is one of the top umpires in the Western Region and an instructor who owned his mistake on his blog the next day. He said he failed to follow his own teaching -- to know your responsibilities. Personally, I think 6-man causes more problems than it solves -- on any size field. I'd never schedule 6 umpires if I was king.

Honestly I do not know why they use 6 Man on these games to begin with. Too small a field.

I know you are trying to defend the guys you work with, but you are telling me that the current system gets the best available guys working games by making everyone pay their way? That is the best system with national television watching every move and paying for many other things, but the umpires have to pay their way to just work these games? Again, they get what they pay for.

Peace

rngrck Sun Aug 21, 2011 05:47pm

Agree, there is no need or room to have 6 umpires on a LL field. I can see only bad things happening with alot of uncertainity with calls.

BigUmp56 Sun Aug 21, 2011 06:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoBits (Post 782697)
Does LL have a training program or do their officials receive training elsewhere?

LL has a pretty good training program through their regional centers, but the problem is not enough of the volunteers take advantage of the training. I've been to a half-a-dozen weekend clinics, and have attended their week long session twice. I'm fortunate in that I live only two and a half hours from the Central Region Headquarters and it isn't a huge cost for me to attend the training.

I don't think the mistakes that are made each year at the WS are any more prevalent than the mistakes we seen on the local ball fields each weekend. The mistakes are just amplified exponentially being televised nationally. I also think that we tend to be way too critical on the Internet of the mistakes these officials make in Williamsport. It can't be easy to umpire on national television.

Tim.

JRutledge Sun Aug 21, 2011 07:07pm

OK, I am listening.
 
OK, then what are the problems and what are the solutions? If the training is excellent and people that umpire are perfect, then why do these big mistakes keep happening year after year after year?

Peace

asdf Sun Aug 21, 2011 08:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigUmp56 (Post 782730)
It can't be easy to umpire on national television.

I guess that explains why every plate umpire I've seen this year throws his/her hands up and declares "foul ball" on balls hit directly back to the screen.

MrUmpire Sun Aug 21, 2011 09:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 782742)
OK, then what are the problems and what are the solutions? If the training is excellent and people that umpire are perfect, then why do these big mistakes keep happening year after year after year?

Peace

You left out the selection process.

Publius Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 782715)
Personally, I think 6-man causes more problems than it solves -- on any size field.

U5 and U6 can be quite valuable on adult-sized fields. MLB wastes them by positioning them improperly. They belong behind the outfielders.

celebur Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoBits (Post 782697)
I was pleased to see the officiating crew correctly take a run off the board on a bases loaded, 1 out play in the Canada-Venezuela game. Venezuelan batter hit a hot grounder to third, F5 stepped on third for the second out and threw home in attempt to retire R3, but F2 did not apply the tag, apparently scoring the run. However, R1 had retreated back to first instead of advancing to second. The defense, recognizing the base running error, threw to second and tagged (not forced) R1 between first and second for the third out. While the announcers and the Venezuelan coaches wanted the run to score, the umpires correctly ruled the run did not score since the third out was made by a runner before reaching the base he was forced to.

IOW, the umpires correctly ruled the run did not score since the third out was a force out.


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