LLWS umpires need to take a page from NFL refs.

[David B]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Personally, I think 6-man causes more problems than it solves -- on any size field. I'd never schedule 6 umpires if I was king.

I agree, that's probably the biggest mistake they make. I know they are trying to reward umpires and allow them to be part of the "extravaganza" that LLWS has become.

However, they end up shooting themselves in the foot every year because it creates way too much indecision etc.,

I'm sure they analyze it, must be what they want since they keep on doing the same thing year after year.

Thanks
David

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Publius

U5 and U6 can be quite valuable on adult-sized fields. MLB wastes them by positioning them improperly. They belong behind the outfielders.

How do they rule on a sinking line drive directly in front of F7 or F9 if they are behind the fielders? We don't want to have U1 or U3 involved, do we?

I position myself in fair ground no more than a step in front of the fielder with the knowledge I need to be ready to sprint forward in the event of a sinking liner.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by DeejABlu

Nce thought poorly executed. anyway most LL umps I know get all kinds of non monetary concessions like free gear, free food, free registration for their kids to play (no charge)......it's embarrassing that they call themselves volunteers...

They're volunteers. Lets see a hot dog and a coke. $3.00 at the most for working a 2 hour game. That's a volunteer! Lets see free gear the balloon and shin guards that are in the box at the field. A free shirt and hat. The Coaches get that and they're volunteers. Lay off those guys they perform a valuable community service. And no I'm not a "volunteer umpire". I'll donate my services for a charity function but that's the extent of my volunteering. But I do respect the guys that volunteer to officiate games so the kids can play.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are right it could of been, but there are too many of these mistakes to chalk it up to just a mistake all the time. Every year we see many big time mistakes that do not happen with even the inexperienced umpires in games I see during the HS season.



Honestly I do not know why they use 6 Man on these games to begin with. Too small a field.

I know you are trying to defend the guys you work with, but you are telling me that the current system gets the best available guys working games by making everyone pay their way? That is the best system with national television watching every move and paying for many other things, but the umpires have to pay their way to just work these games? Again, they get what they pay for.

Peace

This Summer I worked College Wood Bat and a few games using Little League Rules (I got paid) and everything in between. There's no room on a 60 foot field for a six man crew. I don't even see the need for a two man crew. There's no stealing or dropped third. A few steps toward any base and you have everything covered. I did work some two man and the field guy plays behind the fielders. We decided that U1 would handle first and 2nd and the UIC the plate and third. Exceptions to this R1 going back to first UIC would get this and R3 going back to 3rd U1 would get this. U1 also needs to be "ready" handle plays at 3rd if UIC is otherwise occupied. Not sure of the proper LL Mechanics but 15 minutes before the game this is how we decided to cover the field.

[aceholleran]

I guess this is one area on this board where I am somewhat of an expert, after 33 years of doing LL at levels up to Regional. Plus HS, Legion and a summer league of ex-college and -pro players. I retired at the end of last season.

Some of the WP assignments are actually based on merit, some are international (for diversity's sake) and some are handed out to the Smittys of the world.

It's the latter group that irks me.

These are guys who, for the most part, have worked nothing other than LL. And they've been doing it since the Liston-Patterson fight. They're not members of any association, so there isn't anyone guiding them about attire, comportment, game management, mechanics and the zillion other things we must do in order to hone our skills. In short, they've been making the same mistakes--for decades--without criticism ("But that's Uncle Bumps; he's been in this league for 38 years, so he must be right").

IMHO, the reality is: some of us might have started in LL but realized that the best way to improve is to do "higher" levels. I know quite a few former LL umps who just stopped doing it in favor of "moving up." And yes, the monetary factor enters here. FWIW, I am fully in favor of paid umpires at all levels.

I saw a totally embarrassing sitch last night as MEA played Japan. It was simple: R1, 1 out. B1 hits a hot grounder to F5, who fields it in foul territory right near 3B.

PU correctly calls the ball foul. F5 throws to F4, who "retires" R1. I could not see if U2 made a "call" or not. R1 heads back toward dugout, with B1 standing on first. None of the umps does anything to right this, for about 30 seconds.

Finally, PU comes down the line toward 1B. He looks at both players says (and I quote, because I have DVR!): "Who was my last batter?"

[Could not hear an answer. May I insert a "duh" here?]

PU continues, pointing at B1, "You're at the plate and you," pointing at R1,
"are wherever you were at when the play started."

Just horrendous. But, as announcers love to say, "The right call was made."

I am disappointed to say that I don't think this system will ever be rectified. Every August, you'll see Ole Gramps back there, gut hanging out, looking the way that makes members of this group cringe. As we should; I firmly believe that 99% of this group is truly dedicated to excellence in officiating.

I have a way to fix this, but they'd have to pay me for it. Which ain't gonna happen.

Sorry for the long-winded post.

Ace Holleran
Barcalounger League

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

I don't even see the need for a two man crew. There's no stealing or dropped third.

I'm sorry, but there IS stealing. I've done plenty of LL games alone, and a steal of second can get pretty dicey.

Ace

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

I'm sorry, but there IS stealing. I've done plenty of LL games alone, and a steal of second can get pretty dicey.

Ace

No stealing in the conventional sense. You're right though there's stealing.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by DeejABlu

We have different definitions of volunteer, I use the classicla one and so does the LL. No pay for work. Noted that you cut out the part where the LL umpires whose kids get free play with no pay.

Everyone one of these guys have a kid in the league? I don't think so. And so what if their kids play for free. They're volunteers IMHO. Like I said I have a tough time coming down hard on guys who are providing a service so the kids can play. Hell I get paid and quite often I'm offered stuff from the concession stand. So I guess I'm getting paid double.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by DeejABlu

We have different definitions of volunteer, I use the classicla one and so does the LL. No pay for work. Noted that you cut out the part where the LL umpires whose kids get free play with no pay.

I guess that umpiring Little League at an overall loss isn't enough for you (and I did so this year, despite some reimbursements for expenses I received).

I did this community service despite plenty of opportunity to work adult baseball, Legion, Babe Ruth, and plenty of other summer baseball.

Never mind, you're just a troll who will be banned again very soon.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

Everyone one of these guys have a kid in the league? I don't think so. And so what if their kids play for free. They're volunteers IMHO. Like I said I have a tough time coming down hard on guys who are providing a service so the kids can play. Hell I get paid and quite often I'm offered stuff from the concession stand. So I guess I'm getting paid double.

I do not think anyone here has a problem with the umpires, but the system that insists on hiring people that do no more than put on a uniform. They could find or require guys to do more to get to that level. Again, your games are on national TV, not cable access when you get to Williamsport. I am sure the ESPN people are getting paid to be there. Why would the umpires not get paid anything? Not saying you need to get them rich, but respect what they provide to your event.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think anyone here has a problem with the umpires, but the system that insists on hiring people that do no more than put on a uniform. They could find or require guys to do more to get to that level. Again, your games are on national TV, not cable access when you get to Williamsport. I am sure the ESPN people are getting paid to be there. Why would the umpires not get paid anything? Not saying you need to get them rich, but respect what they provide to your event.

Peace

I know you'll probably be surprised, but I disagree with you. Keeping LL volunteer only means there will only be people there that want to be there and not striving simply to earn a paycheck.

Sure, maybe Little League hands out some assignments as if they are gold watches for years served (and sometimes those years served are not in capacity as an umpire), but that happens in a lot of tournaments with "prestigious" assignments. It happens here at the HS state tournament level, where one can only shake a head a some of the people chosen.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I know you'll probably be surprised, but I disagree with you. Keeping LL volunteer only means there will only be people there that want to be there and not striving simply to earn a paycheck.

I'm sure you really didn't mean this as an exclusive "either/or" statement. Certainly you don't believe all umpires who receive compensation are "striving simply to earn a paycheck."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I know you'll probably be surprised, but I disagree with you. Keeping LL volunteer only means there will only be people there that want to be there and not striving simply to earn a paycheck.

Rich, they get paid in many sanctioned games now. I used to work LL several years ago and every game was assigned by a local park district and we were paid every single game. We were not making a killing, but it was something for our time. And I am not talking about paying them for a pay check to get a lot of money, but you cannot take care of their expenses while they are there and put some money in their pocket for the experience? All that does is eliminate those that would like to work but have jobs, and other obligations to eliminate those to want to work because they have to come out of their own pockets to get to Williamsport. And the product on the field reflects that right now.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Sure, maybe Little League hands out some assignments as if they are gold watches for years served (and sometimes those years served are not in capacity as an umpire), but that happens in a lot of tournaments with "prestigious" assignments. It happens here at the HS state tournament level, where one can only shake a head a some of the people chosen.

You do not have to take away that part of it completely. But you should have people that are trained better. And at least the State Finals has people that are being chosen by a much more extensive process than I ever see at this level. And a state final does not have world wide eyes. Is it too much to ask for the people to not embarrass your organization every year?

Peace

[LMan]

When you umpire on national TV with ~ 40k in the stands, the 'let's not pick on the volunteers' mantra is gone. Doesn't matter how many years you've given to LL, at that level you better be able to perform and take criticism in equal measure. Asking batters while on ESPN about which one was last at bat is horse-pucky.

IMO, getting a free pass in LL umpiring dies when the TV cameras switch on, the Frosted Flakes commercials start blaring, and Nomar starts jabbering his nonsense.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Rich, they get paid in many sanctioned games now. I used to work LL several years ago and every game was assigned by a local park district and we were paid every single game. We were not making a killing, but it was something for our time. And I am not talking about paying them for a pay check to get a lot of money, but you cannot take care of their expenses while they are there and put some money in their pocket for the experience? All that does is eliminate those that would like to work but have jobs, and other obligations to eliminate those to want to work because they have to come out of their own pockets to get to Williamsport. And the product on the field reflects that right now.

No, that part of the product does NOT reflect that. You're wrong, completely wrong, IMO..

It's the selection process, not the availability of quality umpires. LL will still select the one year veteran 35 times over whether he's paid or not. It's a gold watch (or more accurately, a LL WS Participant medal) for a number of people every year. Paying LL umpires for these games - what will that solve? It will bring people in that wouldn't work the games without that paycheck, that's all.

I did get some expenses reimbursed, BTW, for my trip to Bangor for the Senior World Series. We got a hotel room, 2 meals a day, and my district gave me money to put towards gas for the trip. Yes, I'm still out a considerable amount of money, but I'm not complaining.

It's part of the gig. I make good money officiating other baseball and other sports and it's my choice whether or not I work LL or not. I know the terms. And I don't think the quality of umpires selected would improve if those guys were paid and if their travel expenses were covered.

BTW, I would pay the travel expenses for the umpires if I was king. The coaches and teams all get flown to the tournaments. As of right now, the only people involved that have to pay to get there are the umpires and that part I *would* fix.