Batter's Box Question

[Fan10]

I was watching the Braves/Marlins game tonight, and early in the game, one of the Marlins players laid down a bunt. As his bat made contact with the ball, his right foot was entirely inside the batter's box, and his left foot was partially inside the batter's box, and the back part of his left foot was between the batter's box and the catcher.

As they showed the replay, the TV commentators started saying that he should have been called out. I didn't think that was right because I thought that as long as part of the foot was inside the box, it was okay. Am I correct there, or is the TV guy right?

Thanks in advance.

[Larry1953]

The rule says the foot has to be entirely outside the batter's box.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Fan10

the TV commentators started saying

Red flag numbers 1, 2, and 3. For the batter to be out, his foot would have to be completely out of the box. If the batter's foot is touching any part of the line, for the purpose of the rule, he is still in the box.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by Fan10

is the TV guy right?

Unless it is Steve Palermo talking on a Fox broadcast...whenever you have to ask this question the answer is "No".

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by lawump

Unless it is Steve Palermo talking on a Fox broadcast...whenever you have to ask this question the answer is "No".

Very well put.

[MIZFKU]

And just on the topic of making that call as an official...Can't we all agree that it's a very tough call to make unless something extraordinary happens? My eyes are tracking the pitch. I don't have an extra one to peak down at his feet. It would have to be clear as day with a little help from a partner. My point is, these TV announcers are constantly looking for inconsistencies and rarely stop to think about the priorities of the umpire.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by MIZFKU

It would have to be clear as day with a little help from a partner.

I would never go to my partner on a batter's box issue.

[UES]

I would never go to my partner on a batter's box issue.

While I agree with you for the most part, I think MIZFKU brings up a good point about tracking the pitch. One of the reasons for getting help on check/half swings is because it is impossible to have "one eye on the pitch and the other eye on the swing". Doesn't that same line of thinking apply to a play like this... ie, you can't have one eye on the pitch location/bunt attempt and the other eye on the batter's foot out of the box?

Now, I know that a base umpire positioned 90+ feet away isn't likely to see where that foot is in relation to the semi "wiped out" lines of the batter's box but I think you can see the point we're trying to make here. Unless you're looking for something like that (ie, you know that particular batter likes to drag bunt a lot), this is an extremely difficult call for the plate umpire to make... not to mention its usually the batter's FRONT foot (the fartherst part of the batter's body away from the umpire) that tends to be outside the box on plays like this.

Don't get me wrong, as a PU, I'm probably not going to get help on a play like this because I'd probably be putting my partner in a tough position because if the call does get changed, then one of us is likely going to have an EJ from the opposing coach. BUT, as a point of discussion amongst us umpires, is it necessarily a bad thing to get input from your partner in case, by chance, he happend to actually see the foot outside the box at the point of contact? Unless of course you're that special umpire who can have one eye look one way and the other look in a different direction Just something to think about...

[UMP 64]

The announcer must have been Tim McCarver. Sounds like one of his brilliant comment about a game he says he played?

[MIZFKU]

Thanks UES. I agree with all of you. I'm never going to my partner to say "Hey, I think he stepped out of the box. What do you have?" But it was just the idea of it. That's a call I'm never making unless I have been tipped off on a certain batter. And it's my hope that young umps learning the trade may read a conversation like this and pick up on some subtle mechanical hints. TWO EYES ON THE BALL....HEAD STATIONARY!!!

[Matt]

Originally Posted by UES

One of the reasons for getting help on check/half swings is because it is impossible to have "one eye on the pitch and the other eye on the swing".

WTF?

Originally Posted by UES

not to mention its usually the batter's FRONT foot (the fartherst part of the batter's body away from the umpire) that tends to be outside the box on plays like this.

That's when it's the EASIEST for PU to make the call. Foot, pitch, and bat are all parallaxically close.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by MIZFKU

That's a call I'm never making unless I have been tipped off on a certain batter. And it's my hope that young umps learning the trade may read a conversation like this and pick up on some subtle mechanical hints. TWO EYES ON THE BALL....HEAD STATIONARY!!!

Never generalize. This call can be made in more than a few circumstances.

[Fan10]

Originally Posted by lawump

Unless it is Steve Palermo talking on a Fox broadcast...whenever you have to ask this question the answer is "No".

Well, I'm just a fan, so I'm certainly no rules expert. In this case, I thought I knew the rule but wasn't sure. I do remember actually learning a rule from Joe Morgan a few years ago. In a Sunday night ESPN game, a batter who had a 2 strike count attempted to bunt and popped it up foul. My first thought was that it was an immediate dead ball and the batter was out since he bunted a ball foul with 2 strikes. However, on this play, the third baseman caught the ball. Morgan then explained how that was a bad play because it gave the runners the potential to tag up (even though they didn't). He explained that he should have let it drop to make sure that no runners advanced. That was new to me, and I discovered Morgan was correct.

So, some broadcasters do know what they're talking about. I think that most of them know a lot more about game strategy than they do about rules.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by Fan10

I think that most of them know a lot more about game strategy than they do about rules.

And that's what Morgan's situation was: game strategy. Any casual fan of baseball knows bunting foul with two strikes is an out, and any fan of baseball knows a bunted ball caught before hitting the ground is an out. However, a casual fan wouldn't think about the situation given by Morgan.

There's a similar one: With less than two outs and a lazy foul fly to the outfield, should the outfielder catch the ball?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Fan10

Well, I'm just a fan, so I'm certainly no rules expert. In this case, I thought I knew the rule but wasn't sure. I do remember actually learning a rule from Joe Morgan a few years ago. In a Sunday night ESPN game, a batter who had a 2 strike count attempted to bunt and popped it up foul. My first thought was that it was an immediate dead ball and the batter was out since he bunted a ball foul with 2 strikes. However, on this play, the third baseman caught the ball. Morgan then explained how that was a bad play because it gave the runners the potential to tag up (even though they didn't). He explained that he should have let it drop to make sure that no runners advanced. That was new to me, and I discovered Morgan was correct.

So, some broadcasters do know what they're talking about. I think that most of them know a lot more about game strategy than they do about rules.

Joe Morgan is wrong 99.99% of the time on rules. This was the one time in a thousand he was correct.

As was stated before, Steve Palermo is the only "announcer" that knows what he is talking about when it comes to rules. Joe Morgan knows the game and situations but as a former player, Joe is weak on the rules and the concepts. Most of what you hear from announcers are the myths of baseball rules (hands are part of the bat, the runner gets the base he was going to +1, etc.) and because people (fans) think that these bozos know what they are talking about, the festering of myths continues.

If you really want to know rules, keep reading the umpire boards and download the MLB rules (PDF version) from MLB Downloadable Rules. Then when a weird play happens, you can tell your buddies what the real reason was that the umpires made that call.

Enjoy the game!