Double play to end inning (one tag, one force)

[bunter82]

Situation: Bases loaded 1 out

Batter grounds to third

3B tags runner advancing from 2nd to 3rd. Runner from third crosses home plate after tag. 3B steps on 2nd before runner on first reaches. Does the run count?

If not, if runner crosses home before the tag, does it count?

Thanks

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bunter82

Situation: Bases loaded 1 out

Batter grounds to third

3B tags runner advancing from 2nd to 3rd. Runner from third crosses home plate after tag. 3B steps on 2nd before runner on first reaches. Does the run count?

If not, if runner crosses home before the tag, does it count?

Thanks

Both plays are force plays. Whether a runner or a base is tagged matters not. The force results from the batter-runner putting the ball in play and forcing R1 from first (who then forces R2 from second, who then forces R3 from third).

No runs score. How does F5 run to second and put out R1 after tagging R2? Does R1 have a refrigerator strapped to his back?

[bunter82]

I was coaching third and couldn't believe it. lot of players don't understand the rules (two outs run on anything! etc). 3 unassisted double plays by the third baseman last night!

[celebur]

As Rich pointed out, the tag on R2 was a force play, but since that was only the second out, whether or not it was a force was irrelevant. All that matters is that the third out (on R1 at 2B) was a force out, so the run does not score. This is not a timing play.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by celebur

This is not a timing play.

Nor is it a time play.

[bunter82]

Thanks for the replies.

So to clarify the 3rd out is what counts. If it was runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out and the the runner advaning from second was tagged then the third out was a throw to first, the timing of the runner from 3rd crossing home is irrelevant, right?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bunter82

Thanks for the replies.

So to clarify the 3rd out is what counts. If it was runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out and the the runner advancing from second was tagged then the third out was a throw to first, the timing of the runner from 3rd crossing home is irrelevant, right?

Correct. If the third out is a force play or the batter-runner retired at 1B, then no runs can score.

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Correct. If the third out is a force play or the batter-runner retired at 1B, then no runs can score.

Not to be nit-picky here but you probably should say "or the batter-runner retired before having safely reached 1B." You could be retired "at 1B" after having reached it safely and it not be a force out and the run would count (see comment on OBR 7.08 j )

[celebur]

Originally Posted by bunter82

So to clarify the 3rd out is what counts. If it was runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out and the the runner advaning from second was tagged then the third out was a throw to first, the timing of the runner from 3rd crossing home is irrelevant, right?

Every rule set will have some kind of rule about scoring of runs. In OBR, that would be Rule 4.09:

Originally Posted by 4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES

(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Not to be nit-picky here but you probably should say "or the batter-runner retired before having safely reached 1B." You could be retired "at 1B" after having reached it safely and it not be a force out and the run would count (see comment on OBR 7.08 j )

Not to be nit-picky here but, it is never a force out at first base.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Not to be nit-picky here but, it is never a force out at first base.

Oh God, please don't start that again! Last week at the ABUA site was enough!

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by lawump

Oh God, please don't start that again! Last week at the ABUA site was enough!

Only for certain individuals

[Larry1953]

Lol...
To explain the origin of the myth, when coaching younger levels, the kids don't know or often forget the force out "mechanic" and in the heat of battle resort to the tag which they all know is good for an out - except of course when the ball gets knocked out of the glove and everybody is safe. A quick reminder, "OK guys, force at any base... Bobby[F5], play it like a first baseman if the play comes to you....OK, coach". That always seemed to help a bit. The kids seem to understand how the "force mechanic" works at 1B from a young age and that is more important then than parsing technical definitions.

Rich, I just couldn't let you down :-)

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

" You could be retired "at 1B" after having reached it safely and it not be a force out and the run would count (see comment on OBR 7.08 j )

Relative to this statement and the batter-runner going to first, you can not have a force out there.

Of course I am open to being proven different. Go for it.

[rbmartin]

True. It may not meet the full definition of a force out as specified in section 2.00 but the mechanics for achieving the "out" are the same.

Although OBR 10.12 (d1) uses the phrase "the fielder recovers the ball in time to force out a runner at any base", thus not specifically excluding 1st base from being called a "force out". Maybe we should chastise the authors of OBR as well.