LL All Stars & Travel Team Question

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

About whether a team can play travel ball and all stars? There's no way I'd possibly have to deal with this situation, so what's the point in an umpire knowing this?

Really?

Manager comes to you with a sub. You announce it. Opposing manager comes to you and says "That sub can't play because he's on a travel team".

So you can either know the rule (actually the lack of one) and it's history and tell him OR you can just stand there with a blank look and then call the TD.

Either way, you're dealing with it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Well - if you followed any of the LL boards or participated in LL instead of bashing it you'd see a LOT of LL umpires who are also LL officials and who rule on such issues.

Regardless, an umpire working LL is not going to get involved with this in his role as an umpire. I, too, wear multiple hats within Little League, but suggesting that a LL umpire should know this because they might, at other times, be acting as a TD or some other such role, is a huge stretch.

We have some very good umpires who work LL who do nothing but umpire, and I see no need for them to know this. At all.

[Tim C]

"This site is about officiating, not just on-the-field umpiring, . . . "

Wrong.

The original link to this page was "eumpire.com".

"Opposing manager comes to you and says "That sub can't play because he's on a travel team".

"So you can either know the rule (actually the lack of one) and it's history and tell him OR you can just stand there with a blank look and then call the TD.

"Either way, you're dealing with it."

This ties for the dumbest post ever made on the internet.

Next you'll tell me that I need also to know how many innings a pitcher has pitched so I know when he is illegally taking the bump.

It is in NO WAY something any umpire needs to know.

T

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Really?

Manager comes to you with a sub. You announce it. Opposing manager comes to you and says "That sub can't play because he's on a travel team".

So you can either know the rule (actually the lack of one) and it's history and tell him OR you can just stand there with a blank look and then call the TD.

Either way, you're dealing with it.

Either way, he's not going to be happy with an umpire and will protest up the chain. Likely such a protest would end up with the region, regardless of my knowledge.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Really?

Manager comes to you with a sub. You announce it. Opposing manager comes to you and says "That sub can't play because he's on a travel team".

So you can either know the rule (actually the lack of one) and it's history and tell him OR you can just stand there with a blank look and then call the TD.

Either way, you're dealing with it.

I'm saying, "Not my position to rule on it" and I'm letting the kid play. I will note that he played, and if asked later will say that he played and some one in charge of administrative rules can determine the legality and penalty, if any.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Well - if you followed any of the LL boards or participated in LL instead of bashing it you'd see a LOT of LL umpires who are also LL officials and who rule on such issues.

So, someone who is both an umpire and a LL official rules on this issue. Is he doing so in his role as umpire or his role as LL official?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm saying, "Not my position to rule on it" and I'm letting the kid play. I will note that he played, and if asked later will say that he played and some one in charge of administrative rules can determine the legality and penalty, if any.

In the LL tourneys, this would be a show stopper until ruled upon. But like I said to Rich, this isn't going to get ruled on to anyone's satisfaction by the game umpire, no matter who it is.

LL allows protests to go to (1) the umpire, (2) the TD/DA/person in charge, (3) the region, (4) Williamsport. If the loser of the protest isn't happy, they can continue to appeal all the way to the janitor answering the phones at Williamsport. We've never had one go past the region, but I think that's because few know they can appeal the region's ruling.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Next you'll tell me that I need also to know how many innings a pitcher has pitched so I know when he is illegally taking the bump.

It is in NO WAY something any umpire needs to know.

You don't track subs?

So you don't know how long the pitcher's been there?

And you don't know the limits which ARE a real rule?

You picked the wrong example.

And besides, the pitching limits in LL are pitches, not innings - and it's by day - and in majors and minors you can't pitch in two games in a day -and in Juniors and Seniors you cannot pitch in two games in a day if you pitched 31 or more in the first game - and if someone protests you'd darn well better know the rules.

Or is allowing an illegal act OK?

LL 4.19
NOTE 2: All Little League officials are urged to take precautions to prevent protests. When a protest situation is imminent, the potential offender should be notified immediately. Example: should a manager, official scorer, league official or umpire discover that a pitcher is ineligible at the beginning of a game, or will become ineligible during the game or at the start of the next inning of play; the fact should be brought to the attention of the manager ofthe team involved. Such action should not be delayed until the infraction has occurred.

LL 9.01
(a) The league president shall appoint one or more umpires to officiate at each league game. The umpire shall be responsible for the conduct of the game in accordance with these official rules . . .
(b) Each umpire is the representative of the league and of Little League Baseball, and is authorized and required to enforce all of these rules.

OBR 9.01
(a) The league president shall appoint one or more umpires to officiate at each league championship game. The umpires shall be responsible for the conduct of the game in accordance with these official rules .. .
(b) Each umpire is the representative of the league and of professional baseball, and is authorized and required to enforce all of these rules.

NCAA 3-6
b. Each umpire is an approved official of the institution, league or conference
and is authorized and required to enforce each section of these rules.

FED talks in several places about administering the rules, not some of the rules.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm saying, "Not my position to rule on it" and I'm letting the kid play. I will note that he played, and if asked later will say that he played and some one in charge of administrative rules can determine the legality and penalty, if any.

Nope.

The protest when discovered during the game has to be resolved before the next pitch.

You need to know that too.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

You don't track subs?

So you don't know how long the pitcher's been there?

And you don't know the limits which ARE a real rule?

You picked the wrong example.

And besides, the pitching limits in LL are pitches, not innings - and it's by day - and in majors and minors you can't pitch in two games in a day -and in Juniors and Seniors you cannot pitch in two games in a day if you pitched 31 or more in the first game - and if someone protests you'd darn well better know the rules.

Or is allowing an illegal act OK?

LL 4.19
NOTE 2: All Little League officials are urged to take precautions to prevent protests. When a protest situation is imminent, the potential offender should be notified immediately. Example: should a manager, official scorer, league official or umpire discover that a pitcher is ineligible at the beginning of a game, or will become ineligible during the game or at the start of the next inning of play; the fact should be brought to the attention of the manager ofthe team involved. Such action should not be delayed until the infraction has occurred.

LL 9.01
(a) The league president shall appoint one or more umpires to officiate at each league game. The umpire shall be responsible for the conduct of the game in accordance with these official rules . . .
(b) Each umpire is the representative of the league and of Little League Baseball, and is authorized and required to enforce all of these rules.

OBR 9.01
(a) The league president shall appoint one or more umpires to officiate at each league championship game. The umpires shall be responsible for the conduct of the game in accordance with these official rules .. .
(b) Each umpire is the representative of the league and of professional baseball, and is authorized and required to enforce all of these rules.

NCAA 3-6
b. Each umpire is an approved official of the institution, league or conference
and is authorized and required to enforce each section of these rules.

FED talks in several places about administering the rules, not some of the rules.

The state of Wisconsin has pitching limits for HS baseball. It's made clear to the coaches that umpires are neither expected to know the rules nor try to enforce them at the field. Therefore, I make no effort to know these rules.

I'm guessing it's the same in many states. I have no idea how many innings the pitcher threw earlier in the week and I don't care.

LL is different. I know who is ineligible to pitch before the game starts since the tourney I'm working is ringfenced.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

So, someone who is both an umpire and a LL official rules on this issue. Is he doing so in his role as umpire or his role as LL official?

Doesn't matter which hat he has on at the moment. What matter's is that he knows the answer.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The state of Wisconsin has pitching limits for HS baseball. It's made clear to the coaches that umpires are neither expected to know the rules nor try to enforce them at the field. Therefore, I make no effort to know these rules.

I'm guessing it's the same in many states. I have no idea how many innings the pitcher threw earlier in the week and I don't care.

That's nice but the subject organization is LL (Thread title is: LL All Stars & Travel Team Question)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Doesn't matter which hat he has on at the moment. What matter's is that he knows the answer.

Not in the least bit. And this is coming from an umpire who wears multiple hats.

I do not want my umpires to handle this -- I want them to refer this to the DA, who has probably already dealt with this question or can deal with it then.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Nope.

The protest when discovered during the game has to be resolved before the next pitch.

You need to know that too.

Surprisingly, perhaps, I did know that. As soon as either coach says the P word, then I would get the TD involved and wash my hands of it. I have no knowledge of whether the kid is on a Travel team or not (or evenhow that term might be defined). And, I can't see caring, even if I did LL (if I was only an "ump" and not also in some admin role)

[Tim C]

Rich you're so full of crap it is hard to give you any credit about anything other than Ratdom.

NFHS does not set pitch limits or even innings pitched.

You example of keeping "tabs on subs" is just another patehic attempt at proving your point.

There is no chance that any umpire needs to know this crap.