About the 234 known OBR errors

[Larry1953]

mb, I believe it was in Nemec's book, not certain though. Or maybe SI's book on Knotty Problems.

Here is one from the J/R quiz that I think they got cometely wrong:

R3, R1, two outs. Ground ball up the middle, just past the pitcher's right side. The shortstop gloves the ball in front of second base and attempts to tag the sliding R1 instead of tagging the base. The tag is missed, but R1 slides past the base without touching it. As R1 scrambles back to the base, the shortstop tags him before he is able to return. R3 scored before the tag was applied for the third out (a 'time play'). The defense appeals that R1 missed second base, hoping to get a force out-an 'advantageous fourth out' - to negate the run.
The appeal is upheld; R1 is out and the run cannot score since the third out is now a force out.
The appeal is not allowed, the run scores.
The umpire should simply call R1 out for being out of the baseline, thus avoiding this whole mess.
The correct answer is "b" (the appeal is not allowed, the run scores), at least according to how professional umpires are likely to officiate this play. In theory, Jaksa and Roder agree with answer "a" (the appeal is upheld; R1 is out and the run cannot score since the third out is a force out), but felt it necessary to write the rule as it is likely to be enforced on the field, as in answer "b." The problem lies in the fact that the Official Rules do not specifically define what constitutes an appeal. As our quiz question shows, when appeals meet force plays, the rules are especially inadequate.

Imagine how strong an umpire you will be when you can see plays like this and get them right! You will not only get them right, but will amaze those around you by being able to give specific reasons for your ruling."

Well, I think Rule 7.12 says it is a third out force play and no runs score. Everybody knows that if a batter hits a grand slam with 2 outs and misses 1B and if the defense makes the appropriate appeal at 1B, that it reverts to "force play or batter makes third out at first" situation and no runs score. How is the J/R example any different? The R1 missed 2B in a force out situation and was out on appeal where you can tag the runner or the base, it is still a force. Say the F6 missed the batted ball grounder and the ball went into CF. R1 now at R2 gets up after his slide and continues on to 3B without ever touching 2B. Tagging the R2 now standing on 3B or throwing to 2B and stepping on the base would result in an out. And since it was a third out force out, no run would score, correct?

[Tim C]

Troll!

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Troll!

C'mon, how is that post "trolling"? J/R is apparently a respected rewrite/commentary to the rules. They contend that I can "amaze" all observers by making the call they suggested and that I can give a reason for the call. "Hey, Blue, that was a force play, what gives with allowing the run"? "Well, J/R says that is most likely the way they would call it in The Show". I imagine that explanation would go over big.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

How is the J/R example any different?

R1 was scrambling back to the base.

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Say the F6 missed the batted ball grounder and the ball went into CF. R1 now at R2 gets up after his slide and continues on to 3B without ever touching 2B. Tagging the R2 now standing on 3B or throwing to 2B and stepping on the base would result in an out. And since it was a third out force out, no run would score, correct?

He's still R1, and he would be out only if the appeal were granted. But otherwise you're correct.

[Larry1953]

mb, I can't really see what "scrambling back to a (forced) bag has to do with it. Let's say the SS makes the same play on the grounder with R1 and R2 and one out. He makes a tag attempt on the passing R1 who obviously misses the bag. He then steps on second for what he thinks is an apparent force out and then wheels and throws to 3B where they catch R2 rounding the bag too far. To F6's amazement, he discovers R1 was ruled safe because he was scrambling back to the bag and had to be tagged (??). Is there a rule that can be quoted that says the force is off when a runner slides past a base without touching it and attempts to get back, or does that just come from the J/R interpretation?

[Larry1953]

Let's try a similar play at first. Batter hits a slow roller between F1 and F3. F1 fields it but is off-balance and begins to stumble. While stumbling and falling F1 attempts to tag B/R who successfully avoids the tag but in doing so it messes up his running cadence such that he runs over 1B without touching it. F1 is able to crawl over and tag 1B barely before the B/R is able to check his momentum and come back to 1B. Is B/R safe because "the force" was off and he had to be tagged instead?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Troll!

Perhaps "phony" is a better term. We've seen this M.O before....seemingly innocent questions from someone remotely related to baseball that evolves into more pointed and very specific questions accompanied by inane research which then turns into arguments with this novice who suddenly is an expert.

He's been here before.

[nopachunts]

Larry1953,

B is the correct answer as R1 acquired 2B when he slid past it, therefore removing the force at 2B. It can't be an appeal for a missed base as the base was not tagged; F6 tagged R1 not the base. Since R1 acquired 2B and R3 scored before the third out was made, the run counts.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

Larry1953,

B is the correct answer as R1 acquired 2B when he slid past it, therefore removing the force at 2B. It can't be an appeal for a missed base as the base was not tagged; F6 tagged R1 not the base. Since R1 acquired 2B and R3 scored before the third out was made, the run counts.

Can you cite a specific rule in the book that supports that, or is acquiring a base by sliding past it but not touching it something covered in an umpire's manual in the tabernacle that the fan or coach does not have ready access to?

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Perhaps "phony" is a better term. We've seen this M.O before....seemingly innocent questions from someone remotely related to baseball that evolves into more pointed and very specific questions accompanied by inane research which then turns into arguments with this novice who suddenly is an expert.

He's been here before.

Ad hominem attacks such as calling someone a "troll" or a "phony" do not constitute a valid "argument".

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

Larry1953,

It can't be an appeal for a missed base as the base was not tagged; F6 tagged R1 not the base. s.

I am certain that the rules say it does not matter if you tag the runner or the base for a missed base appeal, even if the runner is standing on another base. Typically, the play is made to the base, but it can be made by tagging the runner as well. This point was made by several members in another thread about an MLB play where the runner rounded second and did not retouch it on his way back to first.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Ad hominem attacks such as calling someone a "troll" or a "phony" do not constitute a valid "argument".

1. My comments are legitimate and relative...not "Ad hominem" in any regard.

2. I am not engaging in an argument, rather I was making a suggestion to Tim C.

3. I would never argue with you. I don't argue with trolls or phonies. They are always right.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Ad hominem attacks such as calling someone a "troll" or a "phony" do not constitute a valid "argument".

You're right, but that wasn't the intent. The intent was simply to point out his opinion of your presence here so others could evaluate and determine whether or not it was worth responding to your queries.

So, yeah, he isn't really giving you a valid "argument." Then again, he doesn't care to.

[Larry1953]

@nopachunts

I think what you are referring to as an "acquired base" when a runner slides past it and misses it applies only in the case of a runner attempting a steal and he is immediately attempting to return. In that case, the fielder has to tag the runner and not the bag (for a missed base appeal). However, in the J/R case, R1 was forced to 2B by the batted ground ball and he can be forced out at that base by either tagging him or the base before he touches the base. No runs can score when the third out is a force out. At least that is what the plain English of the rules say.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

1. My comments are legitimate and relative...not "Ad hominem" in any regard.

2. I am not engaging in an argument, rather I was making a suggestion to Tim C.

3. I would never argue with you. I don't argue with trolls or phonies. They are always right.

Define troll or phony since you always profess to know everything.