Home plate appeal costs HS Conn team Championship.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If you still insist that preventing a team from doing something illegal is appropriate in baseball that doesn't involve a tee, then you need the retraining. I never mentoned Rich or any other umpire by name, it seems you are doing a Conrad Dobler.

I guess I need to be restrained too because that is my officiating philosophy period. Every sport I was told to tell players when they are close to causing an infraction or say things to them even when they have not committed an infraction so that we do not have to spend all day calling things that are borderline. Now that does not mean we should not call something if it happens. It just means I would not like to call something so minor or not obvious all the time. I think that is being a good official. And just because we say something to a player really does not mean we are preventing them from causing an infraction, we are making them aware of something and if we make a call they can realize they have been warned. For example I am not going to allow a batter to set up clearly out of the box because it might give the other team an advantage if they contact the ball or the ball contacts them.

Peace

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I need to be restrained too because that is my officiating philosophy period. Every sport I was told to tell players when they are close to causing an infraction or say things to them even when they have not committed an infraction so that we do not have to spend all day calling things that are borderline. Now that does not mean we should not call something if it happens. It just means I would not like to call something so minor or not obvious all the time. I think that is being a good official. And just because we say something to a player really does not mean we are preventing them from causing an infraction, we are making them aware of something and if we make a call they can realize they have been warned. For example I am not going to allow a batter to set up clearly out of the box because it might give the other team an advantage if they contact the ball or the ball contacts them.

Peace

If that is the case, your instructors did you no service. Warning a player before he commits an infraction is giving that team an advantage. Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction. In the play we are discussing, if the players step into the plate area during a live ball, man up and do your job.

I realize that high school sports allows umpires a bit more latitude to coach rather than making the hard call. When ratings drive you, it is critical to ignore 'minor' infractions. Don't choose which rules you will enforce. Watch the CWS this week and see how those guys work. They make the tough calls and deal with the ramifications. That is what got them there. That is why they keep getting asked back to work the big games.

Happy Father's Day to those of you who have that title. Enjoy your day.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

If that is the case, your instructors did you no service. Warning a player before he commits an infraction is giving that team an advantage. Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction. In the play we are discussing, if the players step into the plate area during a live ball, man up and do your job.

I guess that every basketball official that tells a thrower in a throw in what he can do he is doing the game a disservice. I guess it is wrong in that same sport to tell the players on a free throw to stay in their lane or stay to wait until a certain moment to enter the lane. Then I guess as a football official to ever tell a player they are marginal on an encroachment penalty or a holding penalty. Or I guess all the times I have defenders hit "receivers" while running routes in the secondary even when the action had not advantage I should also not say a word, because if that is not the case, then every single accomplished or veteran official/umpire that I have worked with does this for many things. I guess they are all totally wrong by doing such things, even though every camp I have attended or training there are tools like this discussed by everyone. Not every situation that we deal with as officials are in a book somewhere. I really hope that is your total justification for what we do in this case and others. I have never read a book how to deal with arguments, but somehow there are umpires that have techniques to deal with those situations.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I realize that high school sports allows umpires a bit more latitude to coach rather than making the hard call. When ratings drive you, it is critical to ignore 'minor' infractions. Don't choose which rules you will enforce. Watch the CWS this week and see how those guys work. They make the tough calls and deal with the ramifications. That is what got them there. That is why they keep getting asked back to work the big games.

Not sure what ratings have to do with this situation at all. I also have worked a lot of college over the years and I use similar tactics to prevent infractions of all kinds as an umpire at the high school level. The CWS is also not a good comparison for one the level of scrutiny is a lot different. If they make a call on a balk there is tape to back them up. A game in the middle of March they work probably is not even recorded other than by a parent and I doubt they are even taping from an angle that anyone would notice. Now since you brought it up one of the guys working the CWS is a Division 1 Basketball Supervisor of a Conference in the Midwest. I bet he did not get to that part by telling officials to not use preventative tactics from time to time and I doubt he got to that point as an umpire doing the same. And I know this because I know officials that work for him at his D1 league and other leagues and I have never heard them suggest to not do what is common in basketball to prevent problems. Maybe I am wrong, but I am going to take a wild guess that if I ever asked him about what you just said he might employ some of those things we are talking about here. Now, I am not saying to do this every single time, just suggesting that there are times and methods to employ such tactics and to tell a player when they might create an infraction of the rules. Because when make the call we are at a point of no return and now we have to call other minor infractions. I would rather talk a kid out of a minor infraction then call one and have to call one all day. And if that is your position, you must not also explain to a player or coach what they did on a balk, because that is also not in the book either.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Show me a mechanics manual of merit that tells umpires to help a player avoid commiting a rule infraction.

Hey, WR (or CB) back up you're in the neutral zone. "Let's go batter" a couple of seconds before they would get an automatic strike. Holding a stop sign up to a coach who wants time but comes out while ball still live. LOTS of examples, in every sport.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

I'm curious now.....
Mike, have you EVER moved a bat out of the way on a play at home?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Hey, WR (or CB) back up you're in the neutral zone. "Let's go batter" a couple of seconds before they would get an automatic strike. Holding a stop sign up to a coach who wants time but comes out while ball still live. LOTS of examples, in every sport.

In basketball, reminding the players to get out of the lane. It's no in the manual, but I can guarantee in most areas if you start making this call (3 seconds) a lot (once a game), the instruction will be to use some preventative officiating.

[Bob James]

Well, I certainly talk to players to prevent infractions. So sue me. Had a Babe Ruth game Saturday where the visiting catcher, obviously not very experienced, set up way forward in the box. I said, "you sure you want to be that close?" The lead-off batter, who happened to be the home team's catcher, almost hit him with a warm-up swing, and stepped back looking quizzically at him. When F2 didn't move, the batter shrugged and I put the ball in play. The batter whacked the hell out of his glove on the first pitch. "I tried to warn you," I said, as he shook his bruised hand. He learned the lesson quickly!

Pitchers in danger of balking will get a soft caution from me, too.

BTW, you should listen to the highest level international rugby referees (they are miked, too) - their games are a constant running dialogue of warnings, instructions, "coaching," if you will. "Stay onside!" "Keep back!" "Make it [the ball] available!" "Play it!" "Release him [to a tackler holding a ball carrier]" and so forth. It's all intended to keep play moving and prevent action-halting infractions.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot I'm not to mention other sports!

[jicecone]

Have to jump in here also. Besides baseball I officiated Ice hockey over 20 years and can point in the manuals were talking to the players is highly encouraged, AT ALL LEVELS. I personally know that it takes place at the PRO level too.

Of course, at the Pro levels of ANY sport there is going to be a lot less communication because your suppposed to be dealing with professionals. Hello!

For the most part here though, I would bet that at least 95-98% of the officials don't work those ranks, and I am not just talking about baseball.

Your welcome to work as you see fit though.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Have to jump in here also. Besides baseball I officiated Ice hockey over 20 years and can point in the manuals were talking to the players is highly encouraged, AT ALL LEVELS. I personally know that it takes place at the PRO level too.

Of course, at the Pro levels of ANY sport there is going to be a lot less communication because your suppposed to be dealing with professionals. Hello!

For the most part here though, I would bet that at least 95-98% of the officials don't work those ranks, and I am not just talking about baseball.

Your welcome to work as you see fit though.

Communicating with contestants is far different than giving one an advantage over another. I would rather emulate the best than accept the actions of those who violate ethics and rules. I have been fortunate to work with some excellent officials over the years and we have evolved as a group. The current crop would have umpired rings around me when I was their age. They are commited to professionalism that is beyond admirable. I have to work much harder when partnered with them and am glad to do it. Their no nonsense approach is refreshing and a reflection of solid training.

[Tim C]

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

I am just a little ole' HS official, but I am happy to send a catcher out to talk to a pitcher (I'll call a balk when the pitcher balks, but when he's close but not balking, it hurts nobody to have the catcher remind him that he's close) or talk to post players to let them know I'm there. What I'm saying is that I agree completely.

[bob jenkins]

It's all part of the "a good umpire is one you don't notice" philosophy. It doesn't mean you don't make the tough calls, it means you deal with the little things before they turn into big things.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Sometimes Mike you're just wrong in how officiating is done in the modern age.

I have been taught for many, many moons that preventive officiating is not only accepted but it clearly defines the top officials from the "almost" top officials.

Quietly reminding a pitcher that he needs to "pause better" when you are a base umpire, telling post men in basketball to quit pushing on each other while trying to gain position, or assiting a wide reciever to line up legally in a football game are not coaching.

Telling players to stay back on the grass as a runner scores is not coaching it is asking that the players respect you in doing your job.

T

I've heard very similar words from Rich Fetchiet, Dave Yeast and Nick Zibelli and I teach the same.

[pastordoug]

I'm curious now.....
Mike, have you EVER moved a bat out of the way on a play at home?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

I'm curious now.....
Mike, have you EVER moved a bat out of the way on a play at home?

Oh dear God I hope not.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Oh dear God I hope not.

LOTS of umpirs do that at all levels.