To Call Safe or Out?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tankmjg24

He started to talk to us and mentioned that he saw the plays occur and from his angle it seemed as if I was right in my calls, but he felt as if I should have ruled out on each. His rationale was that from the coaches angle and fans angle the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make the tag and the runner is no where near the plate. If you rule out no one really questions the call as it looks right.

I think every large association has this guy. I'm sure he looked better to his superiors for having gotten through games appeasing coaches and not making waves. It may even be that when he was calling this was expected. It is NOT expected now. Call what you see. Don't just try to get through games without causing controversy. Call what you see.

[jicecone]

20+ years ago I did a championship 15-16 yr Sr League Regional playoff in LI, NY. HR is hit in 5th and batter-runner misses 3b by at least 1 foot in distance. Other team appeals and I call him out for two outs. Two preceeding runners score. The team loses the game by 1 run and I am the goat. I need a police escourt out of town. First and last time ever. True story.

Two days later at association meeting I have two veterans umpires say that they would never take away a HR like that at that level. I told them they were wrong and stand by my calls. Four years later by chance, I am doing an 18 and over league and somehow get into a discussion with the players after the game about games in the past. They played on that team and told me all about the kid that missed the base and his hot tempered dad. They knew what was the right call and finding that out years latter made me feel good about sticking to my call and working hard to get it right.

Thats what it is about, looking in the mirror and knowing you did your best to get the call right. Tell the veterans to pound salt.

By the way, I have read just about every book and publication Papa C has published and I can't recall him ever advocating making the expected call for the situations you have mentioned.

[David B]

Originally Posted by jicecone

By the way, I have read just about every book and publication Papa C has published and I can't recall him ever advocating making the expected call for the situations you have mentioned.

I think what he is referring to is what Carl used to call "making the unexpected call" on routine plays. IOW, runner is out by three steps, ball is put down and player slides in he's out. But if runner does something different like a hook slide or other superb play, then call it as is.

As far as the OP, I would ignore the advice of the so-called veteran. If its obvious that he's out or safe make the call.

Thnaks
David

[bniu]

if he's safe, he's safe. The one thing I tell fans when they ask me to let their team win: "Hey, I don't have that much influence on the game. Winning and losing is up to the players." If a fielder is that out of position to make the tag, he knows his technique needs fixing and he knows he's not getting the call. Make the proper call, it'll get you good cred with the players. You gain the players respect, your job will be a whole lot easier.

[MikeStrybel]

The expected call debate is one that always causes some sore feelings. For example, the curve ball that crosses above the knees and finishes just above the dirt. I know some who will advocate that it will always be a ball in their games because no one wants to see that pitch called a strike, nor expects it. A few brave souls will say it doesn't matter, it's a strike and they aren't there to appease fans and coaches or achieve higher ratings by ignoring the tough call.

[David B]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

The expected call debate is one that always causes some sore feelings. For example, the curve ball that crosses above the knees and finishes just above the dirt. I know some who will advocate that it will always be a ball in their games because no one wants to see that pitch called a strike, nor expects it. A few brave souls will say it doesn't matter, it's a strike and they aren't there to appease fans and coaches or achieve higher ratings by ignoring the tough call.

good point and of course, all of this depends on the level of ball that you are calling also. "small ball" get every strike and out you can - players that shave and up, its a whole different approach that takes lots of time to develop.

Thanks
David

[GerryB]

Mike & Dave, both excellent points. Level and quality of play are huge factors and my own personal experience has been that as I advanced in ball I had to develop a feel for what the parameters were regarding this kind of call. "Ball there, glove there" is usually expected where I call if the play is routine.

But where's the line? As Dave said that's a development thing. Just this season I had a steal of third by R2. Ball was there but F5 was asleep and late. But from the first base defensive dugout I'm sure it looked out - I called safe. So I got a face full of "the ball was there" from the defensive HC. But you know what? In the seventh inning he came out and apologized; he talked to his F5 who admitted he was late. Of course, my partner after the game said "just call him out anyway, the ball was there..."

TV of course is changing all this and that is a whole different discussion we could have.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by David B

good point and of course, all of this depends on the level of ball that you are calling also. "small ball" get every strike and out you can - players that shave and up, its a whole different approach that takes lots of time to develop.

Thanks
David

Amen to that! My son plays 11U travel and he doesn't understand why strikes are called at the eyes or when the catcher has to dive to catch an outside pitch. At least he knows that as a player the umpire's call isn't worth arguing.

I am still amazed at how many times I see a varsity coach whine that the ball beat the runner on a tag play so he has to be out. "It's not a force, skipper." is my usual reply. I don't see much of that in collegiate ball around here because those guys know the plays will almost always be closer and better. Make the call and don't worry about appeasing those who expect a certain outcome. That is rating's pandering.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

The expected call debate is one that always causes some sore feelings. For example, the curve ball that crosses above the knees and finishes just above the dirt. I know some who will advocate that it will always be a ball in their games because no one wants to see that pitch called a strike, nor expects it. A few brave souls will say it doesn't matter, it's a strike and they aren't there to appease fans and coaches or achieve higher ratings by ignoring the tough call.

It is not applicable to all levels of play. If your day job is Umpiring and you CAN'T, quit it. Then you will call the "expected call" your supervisor tells you too. Else you have a lot more time on your hands to discuss baseball on the Forum.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David B

I think what he is referring to is what Carl used to call "making the unexpected call" on routine plays. IOW, runner is out by three steps, ball is put down and player slides in he's out. But if runner does something different like a hook slide or other superb play, then call it as is.

As far as the OP, I would ignore the advice of the so-called veteran. If its obvious that he's out or safe make the call.

Thnaks
David

Agreed. And, "the expected call" assumes that the tag is down, and in front of the base, and the runner somehow just misses the glove (head first, hands on either side; feet first just sliodes by the glove). Here, you probably get the out.

But, both actors have to play their role to get this call. And, in the OP, the defense did not play the role properly.

It's all part of the art (as opposed to science) of umpiring, and the art will be practiced differently at different levels and in differnent locations.