To Call Safe or Out?

[tankmjg24]

NFHS rules 13-14 tournament if it matters. I am the plate umpire and the field umpire is a guy I have just done a few games with but know. Two close plays at the plate occurred and both times I ruled safe and each time the call went against team A. Each time team A coach questioned my call and the second time I finally had to warn him and put him back in the dugout. My field umpire agreed with both calls as did the catcher. These games were played at a college stadium so there was a lot of foul territory.

Here is the way the plays occurred:

First play was R2 and batter hits a gap shot to right center. The outfield was cheating in and they had to run all the way to the fence to field the ball. R2 easily scored and BR has a stand up triple. F9 throws to F4 who throws to F1 who is in the middle of the infield. The throw from F4 to F1 is wide and F1 misses the ball. The BR who is on third then attempts to score. F2 is backing up the area though and the ball rolls right to him. F1 races home and F2 throws him the ball and the BR is about 20 feet from home when F1 catches the ball at the plate. The BR slides into the plate and F1 reaches out to tag him and does so in the shoulder. BR feet was easily across home before F1 tagged him so I called safe.

The second play has R3 and F1 throws a wild pitch. R3 attempts to score. The wild pitch bounces off the brick wall behind home and F2 only has to go back about 10ft to grab the ball. F1 follows his pitch to the plate. F2 throws to F1 who is standing in the left handed batters box. R3 is only about halfway home when F1 catches the ball, but he proceeds home anyhow. R3 slides across home and F1 goes straight down with the tag and tags R3 in the foot but on the backside of home plate. R3 was not tagged until he had already slid across home so I called safe.

Team A ended up losing the game by 4 runs. After the game was over my partner and I were sitting in the umpires lounge doing a post game. Other umpires that were doing the tournament were present, and one was a recently retired minor league umpire. He started to talk to us and mentioned that he saw the plays occur and from his angle it seemed as if I was right in my calls, but he felt as if I should have ruled out on each. His rationale was that from the coaches angle and fans angle the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make the tag and the runner is no where near the plate. If you rule out no one really questions the call as it looks right. When you rule safe everyone looks twice and it leads to arguing. From talking to him, the way it was taught to them was ball beats runner rule out unless everyone in the ball park could tell no tag occurred.

So now my question is, did I make the correct calls or should I adopt this school of thought that he was talking about?

[JohnDorian37]

i'm a new ump so i have nothing to say on the true convention of this sort of thing, but it seems ridiculous that you would be 100% sure the runner is safe and yet call him out to avoid stirring up bad feelings from fans/coaches.

[MikeStrybel]

No, if you call the game by fan opinion or coach's desire then you do the players a disservice. Call what you see and ignore the advice regarding appeasing others rather than doing your job.

[tankmjg24]

My thought process is that I am not there to assist in coaching or to make anyone happy or mad. I am there to call safes and outs and balls and strikes etc. The majority of the time someone does not like what you call anyhow.

He was basically saying do not over analyze a play. Yea the guy might have tagged him on the backside of the plate, but the runner was 45ft from home when the fielder received the ball so everyone is thinking he is going to be called out. When you call safe, team 1 goes "wow ill take that" while team 2 gets all riled up.

To me, the runner did as he was supposed to while the fielder did not. My same thought goes for calling safe just because it looks right. If the runner slides in way before the throw but is nowhere near the base and gets tagged, I am going to rule out.

I was just kind of surprised by what this guy said and that was how it was taught to professional umpires.

[Eastshire]

My feeling is you just found out why he's recently retired.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

My feeling is you just found out why he's recently retired.

+1, This may have been taught in the past but neighborhood plays are going away because of instant replays being shown more frequently.

[APG]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

+1, This may have been taught in the past but neighborhood plays are going away because of instant replays being shown more frequently.

Exactly...I'm a basketball official...not an umpire, but this is true in all sports. Before the age of having everything on tape, officials could get away with that kind of mindset. Now with everything on tape, we have to call what we see and try as much as possible to have the tape agree with us.

[piaa_ump]

think this was the mindset from a while ago...and even Papa C mentions it in his book about how to ruin a ballgame......by making the unexpected call.......the ball is down and waiting on the runner and the umpire calls safe...

Today with HD and slo mo, MLB is no longer following this.... they know they will be called out in the press if they do it....now, this technology wont ever get filtered down to most of us, but I go with what I have/what I see.........

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tankmjg24

He started to talk to us and mentioned that he saw the plays occur and from his angle it seemed as if I was right in my calls, but he felt as if I should have ruled out on each. His rationale was that from the coaches angle and fans angle the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make the tag and the runner is no where near the plate. If you rule out no one really questions the call as it looks right.

I think every large association has this guy. I'm sure he looked better to his superiors for having gotten through games appeasing coaches and not making waves. It may even be that when he was calling this was expected. It is NOT expected now. Call what you see. Don't just try to get through games without causing controversy. Call what you see.

[jicecone]

20+ years ago I did a championship 15-16 yr Sr League Regional playoff in LI, NY. HR is hit in 5th and batter-runner misses 3b by at least 1 foot in distance. Other team appeals and I call him out for two outs. Two preceeding runners score. The team loses the game by 1 run and I am the goat. I need a police escourt out of town. First and last time ever. True story.

Two days later at association meeting I have two veterans umpires say that they would never take away a HR like that at that level. I told them they were wrong and stand by my calls. Four years later by chance, I am doing an 18 and over league and somehow get into a discussion with the players after the game about games in the past. They played on that team and told me all about the kid that missed the base and his hot tempered dad. They knew what was the right call and finding that out years latter made me feel good about sticking to my call and working hard to get it right.

Thats what it is about, looking in the mirror and knowing you did your best to get the call right. Tell the veterans to pound salt.

By the way, I have read just about every book and publication Papa C has published and I can't recall him ever advocating making the expected call for the situations you have mentioned.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by piaa_ump

now, this technology wont ever get filtered down to most of us, but I go with what I have/what I see.........

While my games are not in HD, they already have replay for the viewers. First televised game this year, I had a play at the plate where, while it wasn't in the realm of the "expected" call, I could have called the runner safe with no debate. However, even though the runner made a nice slide on an errant throw that the catcher had to corral, the catcher made a great play to get the runner on the shoulder just before he reached the plate. The initial reaction of the runner and the commentators (runner's team's TV crew) was that I blew it, but on replay, they dejectedly agreed with the call.

Another point here is if you ever do televised games, try to get a copy of it. A lot of umpires don't get video of themselves outside of clinics, and getting real-life games allows you to see exactly what you do in the real world, for better or for worse. During the game above, I thought I was setting up too wide on my plate stance, but watching it, I saw that that I wasn't. That video saved me from making an unnecessary adjustment and potentially making my umpiring worse the next game.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Matt

While my games are not in HD, they already have replay for the viewers. First televised game this year, I had a play at the plate where, while it wasn't in the realm of the "expected" call, I could have called the runner safe with no debate. However, even though the runner made a nice slide on an errant throw that the catcher had to corral, the catcher made a great play to get the runner on the shoulder just before he reached the plate. The initial reaction of the runner and the commentators (runner's team's TV crew) was that I blew it, but on replay, they dejectedly agreed with the call.

Another point here is if you ever do televised games, try to get a copy of it. A lot of umpires don't get video of themselves outside of clinics, and getting real-life games allows you to see exactly what you do in the real world, for better or for worse. During the game above, I thought I was setting up too wide on my plate stance, but watching it, I saw that that I wasn't. That video saved me from making an unnecessary adjustment and potentially making my umpiring worse the next game.

That's the best advice for any sport. I try to get the majority of my basketball game-tapes and review them. It's interesting to look at my bad habits that I'm not even aware of and then fix them.

-Josh

[David B]

Originally Posted by jicecone

By the way, I have read just about every book and publication Papa C has published and I can't recall him ever advocating making the expected call for the situations you have mentioned.

I think what he is referring to is what Carl used to call "making the unexpected call" on routine plays. IOW, runner is out by three steps, ball is put down and player slides in he's out. But if runner does something different like a hook slide or other superb play, then call it as is.

As far as the OP, I would ignore the advice of the so-called veteran. If its obvious that he's out or safe make the call.

Thnaks
David

[bniu]

if he's safe, he's safe. The one thing I tell fans when they ask me to let their team win: "Hey, I don't have that much influence on the game. Winning and losing is up to the players." If a fielder is that out of position to make the tag, he knows his technique needs fixing and he knows he's not getting the call. Make the proper call, it'll get you good cred with the players. You gain the players respect, your job will be a whole lot easier.

[MikeStrybel]

The expected call debate is one that always causes some sore feelings. For example, the curve ball that crosses above the knees and finishes just above the dirt. I know some who will advocate that it will always be a ball in their games because no one wants to see that pitch called a strike, nor expects it. A few brave souls will say it doesn't matter, it's a strike and they aren't there to appease fans and coaches or achieve higher ratings by ignoring the tough call.