Mechanic on no safe or out call

[mcrowder]

The book tells us that when, in a play at the plate, the runner misses the base, but is not tagged, we signal a safe call so as to not tip off either team about the missed base. (This seems to look much better than the old "standard", if ever it was a standard, of making no call - I think ump looks clueless when he's just standing there making no out or safe call).

However, what about the sliding play at the plate where there's no tag and the runner never gets to the base.

Last night, runner coming home on a passed ball, pitcher covering. Pitcher catches ball (no obstruction), turns to tag - trainwreck, and the ball comes loose. Runner is sitting there, 1 leg forward, a good 4 inches short of the plate. Pitcher was knocked down , sitting between the runner and the plate, and the ball lands right by her. She sits there, showing me possession of the ball in her bare hand, repeatedly tagging the runner's leg with her glove, looking at me waiting for a call. Runner is making no attempt to move at all. They literally sit there for a good solid 5 seconds.

Obviously, I have no out, but not safe at home yet either. Apparently lacking the fortitude to continue staring at them making no call, I say - loud enough for pitcher and runner to hear, and without signaling anything - "She's not out." Pitcher walks away in disgust, runner goes to the dugout (without ever touching home).

2 questions - 1) should I have said anything, signaled safe, or just continued to stare? 2) When defensive coach comes out to complain, how much can I share with him. I obviously can't tell him she never touched - they can STILL appeal, so how would you have explained this to him.

My actual explanation was something like, "Coach - she never tagged her - she had the ball in one hand and tagged with the glove." and left it at that... but there was more. The rest of the story later.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by mcrowder
...Runner is sitting there, 1 leg forward, a good 4 inches short of the plate. Pitcher was knocked down , sitting between the runner and the plate, and the ball lands right by her. She sits there, showing me possession of the ball in her bare hand, repeatedly tagging the runner's leg with her glove, looking at me waiting for a call. Runner is making no attempt to move at all. They literally sit there for a good solid 5 seconds....

"You guys gonna finish this play or what?"

5 seconds! I can't hardly beleive that no one said "Tag her with the ball." or "Touch the base."

They have got to know that something isn't finished if you are just standing there with no call...

I assume you would have called her out if proper appeal was made for not touching the base. What more can a person do?

[Dukat]

I could be wrong but in that situation I would not have said anything and continued to look at them waiting for SOMETHING to happen. They would not have sit there forever as someone would have to do something.

[greymule]

It's sort of like what would you do if the batter hits a ground ball to F4, and F4 stands there holding the ball while BR stands in the batter's box and looks at you.

Or like the theoretical play in which two runners end up on a base but the defense doesn't play on them but instead starts to pitch to the next batter. Nothing to do but allow the game to continue.

You can't tell them how to play the game, but you'd think somebody at some point would tell them what to do.

[SamNVa]

Originally posted by greymule
It's sort of like what would you do if the batter hits a ground ball to F4, and F4 stands there holding the ball while BR stands in the batter's box and looks at you.

Or like the theoretical play in which two runners end up on a base but the defense doesn't play on them but instead starts to pitch to the next batter. Nothing to do but allow the game to continue.

You can't tell them how to play the game, but you'd think somebody at some point would tell them what to do.

Actually GM, speaking FED: there is a case play (8.3.3.B I think) that says that after waiting a sufficient period of time for a play to be made, the umpire should call TIME and declare the trailing runner out.

SamC

[DaveASA/FED]

First of all I think you did the correct thing. During the play there is nothing you really could have said that wouldn't given someone an advantage. If you said "We need to finish" the def could have caught on that off. never touched the plate. I have at times as listed below on a bunt that lands right on the plate said "That's a good ball, we need to do something". You are 100% right you could not tell the def. coach about the missed base I think telling him what you did described the reason you did not call the runner out, and that was your job. He was asking why she was not out, you told him. Knowing she missed the plate is his job to know and properly appeal.

And I had 1/2 of the foul ball situation last night in a varsity game. Girl hits a ball 2 feet in foul territory toward 1st base with the most back spin I have seen in a long time, well it hits rolls back fair, 1st base picks it up throws to first (F4 covering) for the out. Batter is still standing in the box, at least 1 team knew what to do!!

[greymule]

Actually GM, speaking FED: there is a case play (8.3.3.B I think) that says that after waiting a sufficient period of time for a play to be made, the umpire should call TIME and declare the trailing runner out.

That sounds sensible, though I wonder whether anyone has ever actually had to make that call. Supposedly, there's a real-life case in baseball where four runners were occupying the three bases, and some guy hit a 5-run home run. "Grandest of all slams," I guess, and a record for RBIs on one swing.

[mcrowder]

Coach's next comment after I explain why she was not out was, "But she never made it to home plate!!!" I just looked at him. "How can you call her safe if she never touches home plate!!!!"

"Coach - your girl never tagged her. How can I call her out if she was never tagged?"

He goes back to the dugout. Pitcher gets set. Just as she's winding up, coach finally figures out he should appeal, and yells "STOP!!!!" to his pitcher, who tries, but fails, to stop, throwing the pitch to the backstop nearly on the fly.

At least coach knew enough not to try to appeal after that pitch.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA.

Actually, you should have ruled the runner out the moment they stepped into DBT. That is not an appeal play.

Since they never reached the plate, they really didn't "miss" the bag, nor consider the runner to have touched it and safe pending appeal.

Neither coach has an argument. Neither player did their job. And the runner voluntarily abandoned her effort and entered DBT without you directing them to do so.

This is basically a DMEbU! Dumb move everyone, but the Umpire.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Apr 18th, 2004 at 09:40 AM]

[mcrowder]

Interesting thought Mike. Is that clearly the call if her dugout was on the first base side? She was literally inches short of the plate, and then got up and went straight for the dugout, the gate of which is maybe 40 feet down the baseline. Is that, then, overrunning the plate?

If so (and I think you might rule so in a game), what's interesting to me is that we have a ruling that would differ solely based on which dugout the team is in ... which doesn't seem entirely right to me.

It's an angle I didn't consider though.

[Ed Maeder]

Why would which dug out you are in make any difference. She abandened her base running responsabilities and entered dead ball territory by entering her dugout. Just like someone on a dropped third strike not going to first base and the catcher not tagging her or throwing to first. When she enters the dugout she is declared out. I guess I see where if she went to the first base dug out you would have to consider she touched home until appealed, but in this situation she didn't make it to the plate and the defence and the offence both conseded that the play was over. I don't think in this situation I would consider her to have overrun home and missed it, but just abandened her base running.

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Apr 16th, 2004 at 10:31 PM]

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Ed Maeder
Why would which dug out you are in make any difference. She abandened her base running responsabilities and entered dead ball territory by entering her dugout. Just like someone on a dropped third strike not going to first base and the catcher not tagging her or throwing to first. When she enters the dugout she is declared out. I guess I see where if she went to the first base dug out you would have to consider she touched home until appealed, but in this situation she didn't make it to the plate and the defence and the offence both conseded that the play was over. I don't think in this situation I would consider her to have overrun home and missed it, but just abandened her base running.

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Apr 16th, 2004 at 10:31 PM]

I agree Ed, why would 1st base dugout not be any more dead than 3rd base
dugout.

BTW, I see you had a warming trend that is causing some problems
in Alaska.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump


I agree Ed, why would 1st base dugout not be any more dead than 3rd base
dugout.

It makes a difference because to get from the 3B side of the plate to the 1B side dug out, the runner has to do what?

That's right, pass the plate. And in ASA, what happens when a runner passes a base without touching it? Right again, the runner is then considered to have touched the base pending appeal.

The original problem was that the runner NEVER reached the plate, therefore the umpire could not offer a "safe" ruling. Now that she gets up and walks pass the plate, should the umpire now rule the runner safe pending a proper appeal?

My response would be that it would depend on the manner in which the runner arose and walked to the dugout. If the umpire is lucky, they will step ON the plate, but that will most likely not happen.

If the runner jumps up and basically walks around the plate, I'm going to consider her to have abandoned her effort to touch the plate and if she enter DBT, I will rule her out. I will also be prepared to explain it to the coach and tell him if s/he has any problems, s/he should talk to their players or fellow coaches because I, as the umpire, am not responsible for covering their shortcomings.

[whiskers_ump]

Mike

I was going to reply to your post, that since she never
reached the plate, she probably just got up and headed for dugout, thereby probably not passing the plate, but hell, You covered that too.

Good Post as usual.

[bethsdad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[B]Speaking ASA.

. And the pitcher voluntarily abandoned her effort and entered DBT without you directing them to do so.



What does that have to do with the play ? Brian