The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 04:08pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,804
Appeal Play Ruling--NCAA Rules.

While perusing (I hope I spelled that correctly) May issues of Referee Magazine, the first question in the Test Yourself portion of the Baseball Section is as follows (I will try to make it concise):

Bases load, one out. Ground ball to F4 deep in the hole. Only play for F4 is to get the B/R5 at 1B. The runners on 3B (R3) and 2B (R2) score. But the runner on 2B misses 3B, and the defense successfully appeals the runner on 2B missing 3B. Does R3's run score? ANSWER: According to Referee, NFHS Rules and OBR says yes, and the logic for this ruling is a no brainer. BUT, Referee states that NCAA Rules say that R3's run does not score (R8-S5, Exception).

I do not own an NCAA Rules Book, so would a college umpire please explain the NCAA ruling to MTD, Jr., and I, or did Referee Magazine screw this play up. Thank.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Ump. Assn.
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio

Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Sun May 01, 2011 at 08:02pm. Reason: Corrected typo and spelling.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 04:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057
Send a message via Yahoo to UmpJM
Cool

Mark,

1. It's "perusing".

2. A PDF of the current NCAA rule book can be downloaded (free) here: NCAA Publications - 2011-2012 Baseball Rules (2 Year Publication)

3. One place you say R2 misses HP, another you say he missed 3B - I believe you meant 3B both times.

The ruling is NOT different in NCAA from what it would be in OBR & FED, despite Referee mag's assertion to the contrary.

As the question was presented it was impossible to answer because it never said whether the R2 had already passed 3B at the time the BR was retired at 1B. Therefore, we don't know whether the R2 was "forced" at the moment he missed 3B.

JM
__________________
Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 06:09pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
Mark,

1. It's "perusing".

2. A PDF of the current NCAA rule book can be downloaded (free) here: NCAA Publications - 2011-2012 Baseball Rules (2 Year Publication)

3. One place you say R2 misses HP, another you say he missed 3B - I believe you meant 3B both times.

The ruling is NOT different in NCAA from what it would be in OBR & FED, despite Referee mag's assertion to the contrary.

As the question was presented it was impossible to answer because it never said whether the R2 had already passed 3B at the time the BR was retired at 1B. Therefore, we don't know whether the R2 was "forced" at the moment he missed 3B.

JM

Coach:

I corrected the typo in my OP. But, I have never heard the argument put forth regarding the location of R2 at the time of BR5 out at 1B. Every play that I have heard discussed where the BR is thrown out at first rather than going after a runner forced to advance has never discussed that question. Thanks for you answer.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Ump. Assn.
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 07:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057
Send a message via Yahoo to UmpJM
Cool

Mark,

You're welcome.

I believe you may have "mis-corrected" your typo.

JM
__________________
Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 08:04pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
Mark,

You're welcome.

I believe you may have "mis-corrected" your typo.

JM

I fixed it again. LOL, that is what happens when I get excited about the Indians winning.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Ump. Assn.
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 08:33pm
DG DG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,022
Interesting. There was a FED question similar.

With the bases loaded and one out, B5 hits a line drive to the right field fence. R1 and R2 both score, but R3 is thrown out at home. B5 safely arrives at third, but missed first base. The defense properly appeals B5's missing first. [Rule 9-1-1 Exception d]
No runs score. (Correct Answer)

Now put this same scenario onto what you have and let me know what you come up with.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 08:40pm
DG DG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,022
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
As the question was presented it was impossible to answer because it never said whether the R2 had already passed 3B at the time the BR was retired at 1B. Therefore, we don't know whether the R2 was "forced" at the moment he missed 3B.
Safe to assume though that R2 with a lead off 2b and ball hit deep in the hole to SS he would have passed 3B at the time the throw reached 1b so he was very likely forced.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 08:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Gulf Coast of TX to Destin Fl
Posts: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I fixed it again. LOL, that is what happens when I get excited about the Indians winning.

MTD, Sr.
Gotta cut him some slack JM when Mark's Indians are winning.....IJS

Joel
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 09:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 329
The text of the NCAA rule is different and is ambiguous.
8-5:
j. The individual fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags the runner or the base after the runner has been forced to advance because the batter became a runner;
Exception—No runner can be forced out if a runner who follows in the batting order is put out first. However, if a runner is put out during live action, it does not remove the force on any runners who might subsequently be declared out for a running infraction.
A.R. 1—No run may score on any play when the third out is either a force out or the result of a batter-runner’s failure to reach first base safely.


I've bolded the part that Referee Magazine is probably basing its opinion on.

I believe, but have no way to prove, that the bolded part is intended to apply to situations very similar to the OP.
Bases loaded, B/R is safe at first, attempts briefly to reach second and is tagged out. In this case R2 is still forced to third because B/R was safe at first. So the appeal is of a force out which is the third out.

If my surmise is correct, the the bolded part is really only a clarification, and the same ruling is implicit in the other rule codes. But Referee Magazine probably took the bolded sentence literally and ignored the contradiction to both the preceding sentence and to baseball common sense.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 09:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulf Coast Blue View Post
Gotta cut him some slack JM when Mark's Indians are winning.....IJS

Joel
Go TRIBE !!!

Awsome, Huh?
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 01, 2011, 10:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 3,100
Peruse is an interesting word. It originally meant to examine in detail; scrutinize but now simply means to read carefully or thoroughly; study. However, peruse was so often used ironically that it took on a third, quite different, meaning: to read in a casual or leisurely way.

Dave Reed—I'm sure you are correct about the bolded words.

R2, R1, one out. Batter gets a hit down the RF line. R2 scores, R1 misses 2B and proceeds to 3B. BR is thrown out at 2B trying for a double. R1's miss is then appealed. It's a force play for the third out, and R2's run is nullified, even though "a runner who follow[ed] in the batter order [was] put out first."

You're right. It's badly written.
__________________
greymule
More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men!
Roll Tide!
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 02, 2011, 11:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 425
Consider this and see if clarifies how the NCAA wants appeals of missed based by forced runners handled.

Quote:
Play: Bases loaded, one out. The batter triples. R1 missed second and the batter-runner missed first. The defense successfully appeals against the batter-runner, then R1. The appeal out of the batter-runner removes the force against R1. R1’s appealed out (third out) is not a force out; R2 and R3’s runs count. If the defense had appealed R1's' missing second as the first appeal and then the batter-runner’s missing of first, no runs would have scored since the third out was for the batter-runner not attaining first base.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 02, 2011, 01:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 3,100
Play: Bases loaded, one out. The batter triples. R1 missed second and the batter-runner missed first. The defense successfully appeals against the batter-runner, then R1. The appeal out of the batter-runner removes the force against R1. R1’s appealed out (third out) is not a force out; R2 and R3’s runs count. If the defense had appealed R1's' missing second as the first appeal and then the batter-runner’s missing of first, no runs would have scored since the third out was for the batter-runner not attaining first base.

Is this an official NCAA case play? If it is, then my example above would be wrong in NCAA. And so would Play 106-243 [p. 145] in my 2006 BRD, which is of course possibly out of date now. (In fact, it may even for its time have been incorrect in one particular: it asserts that in NCAA, an appeal of a runner forced at the time the play started, not at the time he missed the base, remains a force throughout the play. Some NCAA umpires on this board insisted that "at the time of the miss" was the criterion, as in Fed and OBR.)

The play given in the BRD to demonstrate "order of appeals" involves an obvious non-force and an obvious force, not a force removed because a following runner had been put out. Still, it's hard to believe that NCAA follows neither Fed nor OBR but instead follows ASA softball, in which a putout of the BR instantly and permanently removes all forces, including appeals.
__________________
greymule
More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men!
Roll Tide!

Last edited by greymule; Mon May 02, 2011 at 01:42pm.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 02, 2011, 02:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule View Post
Play: Bases loaded, one out. The batter triples. R1 missed second and the batter-runner missed first. The defense successfully appeals against the batter-runner, then R1. The appeal out of the batter-runner removes the force against R1. R1’s appealed out (third out) is not a force out; R2 and R3’s runs count. If the defense had appealed R1's' missing second as the first appeal and then the batter-runner’s missing of first, no runs would have scored since the third out was for the batter-runner not attaining first base.

Is this an official NCAA case play? If it is, then my example above would be wrong in NCAA. And so would Play 106-243 [p. 145] in my 2006 BRD, which is of course possibly out of date now. (In fact, it may even for its time have been incorrect in one particular: it asserts that in NCAA, an appeal of a runner forced at the time the play started, not at the time he missed the base, remains a force throughout the play. Some NCAA umpires on this board insisted that "at the time of the miss" was the criterion, as in Fed and OBR.)

The play given in the BRD to demonstrate "order of appeals" involves an obvious non-force and an obvious force, not a force removed because a following runner had been put out. Still, it's hard to believe that NCAA follows neither Fed nor OBR but instead follows ASA softball, in which a putout of the BR instantly and permanently removes all forces, including appeals.
I am in total agreement with you. However, this is how the NCAA wants appeals to be handled. This interp came from the March meeting of conference coordinaters. It further clouds the interp that if a previous runner is put out during live play the force is still in effect.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 02, 2011, 03:55pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 View Post
It further clouds the interp that if a previous runner is put out during live play the force is still in effect.
Yeah, isn't that a bit odd? Did they state any rationale for that?
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NCAA Rule Question - Appeal Play Durham Baseball 19 Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:05pm
Appeal play & proper ruling m084307 Baseball 7 Sun Apr 27, 2008 08:58pm
SEC wants high schools to play NCAA rules ? SWFLguy Football 15 Mon Sep 27, 2004 09:30am
Appeal play under Williamsport rules isneths Baseball 5 Wed Jul 14, 2004 04:26pm
Pro Rules - Appeal Play wadep1965 Baseball 3 Mon May 31, 2004 10:46am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1