Unsafe catcher

[ozzy6900]

Totally disagree here. We are not coaches, we apply rules. If F2 is where he should not be, call the offense as it occurs. If you tell F2 "Don't stand there" and he moves to a worse position and gets nailed, you are responsible. Keep your mouth shut and take care of business when it happens,. You can't be held responsible for stupidity.

[kylejt]

Unless these are little kids we're talking about, I'm with Ozzy on this one. Let it run it's natural course, and rule on what happens.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Totally disagree here. We are not coaches, we apply rules. If F2 is where he should not be, call the offense as it occurs. If you tell F2 "Don't stand there" and he moves to a worse position and gets nailed, you are responsible. Keep your mouth shut and take care of business when it happens,. You can't be held responsible for stupidity.

With due respect, Oz, FED wants us to use preventive officiating to help reduce the risk of injury. No rule requires you to move the bat out of a scoring runner's path: do you consider that to be coaching as well?

I'm not responsible for any player's bad decision: if out of concern for safety I tell him to move and he moves somewhere worse, I have done nothing wrong. If you told me to quit smoking cigarettes and I started smoking crack instead, would you really feel bad or responsible?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by mbyron

With due respect, Oz, FED wants us to use preventive officiating to help reduce the risk of injury. No rule requires you to move the bat out of a scoring runner's path: do you consider that to be coaching as well?

I'm not responsible for any player's bad decision: if out of concern for safety I tell him to move and he moves somewhere worse, I have done nothing wrong. If you told me to quit smoking cigarettes and I started smoking crack instead, would you really feel bad or responsible?

Sorry, you are wrong. The FED does not want you telling players where to go, where to stand and what to do. That is coaching and this is not LL.

If you want, I can compile a list of all kinds of things that can be construed as "preventative umpiring" like:

• "Hey, don't throw that ball so hard on the pickoff"
• "Hey, don't slap that tag so hard"
• "Don't throw so hard to the batter, you might hurt him"

The list can go on and on.

Telling F2 where to stand is coaching, not preventative umpiring.

[mbyron]

It doesn't sound as if you know what preventive officiating is.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It doesn't sound as if you know what preventive officiating is.

Personally, it sounds more to me that some don't understand the role of an umpire.

[pastordoug]

While there is a difference between levels of players (Varsity vs 13U) it has been my experiance that any form of appeared 'coaching" should be avoid. By making that interference or obstruction call imo will benefit them in the long run by 1. helping the coach understand the rules and 2. player/runner won't be doing that again.... There seems to be a fine line some make between coaching and preventive umpiring. I think the line is clear. Just call the game and leave ALL the coaching to the coaches.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

While there is a difference between levels of players (Varsity vs 13U) it has been my experiance that any form of appeared 'coaching" should be avoid. By making that interference or obstruction call imo will benefit them in the long run by 1. helping the coach understand the rules and 2. player/runner won't be doing that again.... There seems to be a fine line some make between coaching and preventive umpiring. I think the line is clear. Just call the game and leave ALL the coaching to the coaches.

If the coach is paid, he's paid to coach... not us.
If the coach is volunteer (I.e. "league" ball), in many cases he's a babysitter and sometimes no more educated than the Team Mom.

You'd never catch me dead "coaching" a high-school game (V, JV, F, whatever) or a Select league game ... or even A-level tourneys.
But in league ball, I bet I've "taught" the coach what obstruction is and "taught" the first baseman not to stand on that bag admiring the triple the batter just hit 100 times a season... some coaches and players more than once!

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It doesn't sound as if you know what preventive officiating is.

Sounds like you should be coaching.

[DG]

Agree with Oz to a degree. I don't see anything to call. If runner is running full steam and bumps catcher hard that don't sound like anything to call. If he does it maliciously and I got something to call. Post did not sound like it was malicious.

[swkansasref33]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Sorry, you are wrong. The FED does not want you telling players where to go, where to stand and what to do. That is coaching and this is not LL.

If you want, I can compile a list of all kinds of things that can be construed as "preventative umpiring" like:

• "Hey, don't throw that ball so hard on the pickoff"
• "Hey, don't slap that tag so hard"
• "Don't throw so hard to the batter, you might hurt him"

The list can go on and on.

Telling F2 where to stand is coaching, not preventative umpiring.

So would you instead say " Hey, If you stand there, you might get trucked." ?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

So would you instead say " Hey, If you stand there, you might get trucked." ?

No, if you were paying attention, I am saying that you do not say anything, it's not your place as an umpire.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Totally disagree here. We are not coaches, we apply rules. If F2 is where he should not be, call the offense as it occurs. If you tell F2 "Don't stand there" and he moves to a worse position and gets nailed, you are responsible. Keep your mouth shut and take care of business when it happens,. You can't be held responsible for stupidity.

Ozzy, thanks.

Preventive officiating does not involve telling a catcher to move because he MAY be in the way. That is being an Overly Officious Official and an invitation for fallout when your meddling is ignored or causes a more serious scenario.

I recall a discussion a while ago about another OOO. With R3 he told the batter to move far away if the ball gets away from the catcher. The batter didn't move and he ejected him, citing the player's lack of respect for his authority. Telling a catcher or scored runner to remove a bat is another example that some think is fine but others whince at. I have seen what happens when a partner tells a catcher to "Get the bat out of the way." One involved the on deck batter having a bat sail his way and the other had the catcher try to kick the bat with his foot, fall and miss the catch. When his coach learned that the umpire told him to do it, the coach was justifiably upset. The umpire felt justified that he was trying to make the play safer but forgot to simply call the play. One of the first things I tell new umpires is to be Harry Carey out there - see the play and tell everyone what happened. I have heard other instructors preach the same thing - watch and report, but never coach. Call the game.

[dileonardoja]

The problem with this board is that we some umpires that do 10U baseball and other that can't remember there last JV game. Granted at the Varsity level and up there is rarely a need to say anything (and you shouldn't) because these acts of ignorance don't occur very often and the players know better. But pre-shaving age kids are a different story. Many have not learned what to do and many are poorly coached. I do NOT want to coach them but I want to get through the game with as few problem as possible so if I tell a 13 year old catcher to get out of the baseline while the ball is being fumbled out in the field and runner is barreling home, I clearly don't see that as OOO.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by dileonardoja

The problem with this board is that we some umpires that do 10U baseball and other that can't remember there last JV game. Granted at the Varsity level and up there is rarely a need to say anything (and you shouldn't) because these acts of ignorance don't occur very often and the players know better. But pre-shaving age kids are a different story. Many have not learned what to do and many are poorly coached. I do NOT want to coach them but I want to get through the game with as few problem as possible so if I tell a 13 year old catcher to get out of the baseline while the ball is being fumbled out in the field and runner is barreling home, I clearly don't see that as OOO.

Well said. You are correct that for those of us who no longer work baseball below varsity level sometimes forget what little guys do out there. I am only speaking to baseball umpiring at varsity and above. While others may disagree and feel the need to involve themselves in the game, I would rather not and it has served me well for thirty plus years. Long ago, I was taught the 'don't do that' method of umpiring. It still has it's place but I don't believe on fields where varsity level and above play ball. Penalize what they do (or don't do as the case may be).

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Harry Carey is a legend in Chicago. Calling games for the Sox and Cubs endeared him to almost every baseball fan around this area. While no longer with us, his message of waiting and speaking still resonates here. Feel free to use the beloved commentator of your choice, the analogy works well. Umpires simply see what happens and then tell the world.