Illegally batted ball?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Simple call. I am looking at the exact moment (clip) that B contacts the ball. The PU is looking up the line and/or at the ball. Never once did he look at the feet of the batter.

If he had been checking foot position as the proper mechanic immediately after the ball is contacted, he would have clearly seen that B's left foot is behind the point of home plate.

Could you tell me at what professional school or in which publication that proper mechanic is found?

[MikeStrybel]

I may be wrong but according to PBUC;

Accidental batted ball; out of the box
A batter is obviously trying desperately to avoid being hit by a pitch. His foot lands completely out of the batter's box and the pitch hits his bat. He is not attempting to hit the ball. Is he out? Is it a foul if it goes foul? Is it a fair ball if it goes fair?

PBUC answer: Don't call batter-runner out (He did not deliberately step out of batter's box to hit pitch). Result of batted would stand (fair or foul)
Same situation as above but as he is ducking the pitch he drops the bat and the pitch hits the bat while it is not in the batter's hands. What is the call?

It would stand to reason that if PBUC demands an umpire be aware of intent for this case, they would want an umpire to be aware of a batter who deliberately steps out in order to contact the ball. Right?

Jim preaches to watch the ball into the mitt. That means that an umpire is looking forward and most often, down.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I may be wrong but according to PBUC;


It would stand to reason that if PBUC demands an umpire be aware of intent for this case, they would want an umpire to be aware of a batter who deliberately steps out in order to contact the ball. Right?

Jim preaches to watch the ball into the mitt. That means that an umpire is looking forward and most often, down.

Yes he does. The question becomes what is your first responsibility after the ball has been bunted and that would be to do a quick check of the feet.

In the case in point, it is clearly and completely obvious that the batter could well be outside the box. B is having to reach well across the plate, his left hand is past the outside corner, F2 has cleared to catch an outside pitch and fer Crissakes B's foot is within inches of the PUs foot. What was he doing, how can he miss this call?

I have to think that PU isn't trained to make this call (Jenkins claim this isn't called in MLB) or he is so totally stunned by the squeeze he forgets wtf he is doing.

Let's take this to another level. If MLB umpires do not make this call, then how far can B go outside the box to bunt? Across the plate? 5 feet into the infield? Where is the limit?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I may be wrong but according to PBUC;


It would stand to reason that if PBUC demands an umpire be aware of intent for this case, they would want an umpire to be aware of a batter who deliberately steps out in order to contact the ball. Right?

Jim preaches to watch the ball into the mitt. That means that an umpire is looking forward and most often, down.

Surely you understand the difference between the PBUC case and the situation in this thread. In case you do not, I'll answer my rhetorical question:

Neither PBUC nor the Academy teaches, as a standard or routine mechanic, to look at the batter's feet after a pitch or batted ball as ST"b" described.

Thanks for playing.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Could you tell me at what professional school or in which publication that proper mechanic is found?

I teach it. I don't need a professional school, which apparently doesn't teach outside the box = OUT, to misinform me or do I need a publication to misinform me to disregard OBR.

YMMV, obviously. Think for yourself, man!

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

I teach it. I don't need a professiuonal school, which apparently doesn't teach outside the box = OUT, to misinform me or do I need a publication to misinform me to disregard OBR.

YMMV, obviously. Think for yourself, man!

No one suggested anything of the like. What was asked was who taught what you described as a routine mechanic. Simlple question that doe not require a philosophical debate of a rule.

[MikeStrybel]

PBUC teaches umpires to see balls hit foul off a batter's feet. They expect umpires to watch the batter for illegal behavior as well.

Look at 6.06a and read the note. OBR is still taught at pro school, right?

Hank Aaron lost a home run for being out of the box.

Babe Ruth was called out when he stepped across the plate to hit a pitch on an intentional walk.

Bernie Williams was called out for bunting while out of the box.

Maury Wills used to have his ground crews make the boxes bigger when facing duece throwers. He was caught and fined.

Ask Carl Everett about his exchange with Ron Kulpa about being out of the box.

[yawetag]

Five examples over several decades. In that time, what percentage of these calls do you think were made?

[Rich]

Notice nobody, NOBODY arguing for such a call to be made.

With the benefit of replay, I can see that his foot is probably 2 inches out of the box (only his heel has to be touching the line) at the time of contact. You expect an umpire to get that in real time? Especially since you have to see the foot at the time of contact, not a second later (since if the foot's in the air at contact, it's a legal play).

I choose to take my direction in this type play from the ML umpires who, wisely, IMO, don't bother with this kind of nonsense.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Especially since you have to see the foot at the time of contact, not a second later (since if the foot's in the air at contact, it's a legal play).

Not just the potential for the foot being in the air at the moment of contact - with a lunge like this, I GUARANTEE his foot is sliding forward - if you look down AFTER the contact, his foot is not where it was when he made contact.

Nevermind that in this particular play, with the foot significantly behind the plate, it's highly likely the umpire was blocked by the catcher at the moment of contact.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Notice nobody, NOBODY arguing for such a call to be made.

You mean no one who apparently is not in your killfile.

With the benefit of replay, I can see that his foot is probably 2 inches out of the box (only his heel has to be touching the line) at the time of contact. You expect an umpire to get that in real time?

Absolutely.

I choose to take my direction in this type play from the ML umpires who, wisely, IMO, don't bother with this kind of nonsense.

What other OBR's do you ignore?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Five examples over several decades. In that time, what percentage of these calls do you think were made?

That wasn't the question. 6.06a is still taught at pro school.

As noted, Evans and Wendlestedt both teach their students to see the ball contact the bat and then redirect to the batter's foot. That is a standard mechanic and is requires an umpire to know where the batter's feet are when contact is made.

In response to your question, I can think of numerous calls that aren't made regularly but that doesn't dismiss the fact that they are taught to look for them. Further, I cited a few that were noteworthy but there are others. When told that MLB doesn't call them, I merely provided a few times when they did. Obviously these umpires were taught the mechanic and remember how to do it. Knowing how to apply basic mechanics to help in uncommon situations is in play here. The rule book doesn't define every word and PBUC doesn't display every mechanic.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

That wasn't the question. 6.06a is still taught at pro school.

As noted, Evans and Wendlestedt both teach their students to see the ball contact the bat and then redirect to the batter's foot. That is a standard mechanic and is requires an umpire to know where the batter's feet are when contact is made.

You truly see no difference in tracking a batted ball to the foot and tracking the ball away from a batter, into fair terriotry and still taking time to look for a foot? Neither school teaches that. Neither.

Wow.

[Chris Viverito]

JEAPU does teach umpires to call out of the box. If memory and my notes serve me well, this is something to resist over-officiating.

In other words - call it only when it is so clear the base umpires will see it...or if a player is known for it and...does it as in part one.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Suudy

What about the case of swinging at an IBB? I can't find a video of Cabrera's hit, but I wonder how far he had to reach. Are illegally batted balls called at all?

Doh! Nevermind.... I missed this post:

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Babe Ruth was called out when he stepped across the plate to hit a pitch on an intentional walk.

But this was a long time ago. I don't know how often people actually swing at IBBs. But I presume the PU is looking at feet in these cases, no?