Runners Swap

[Mrumpiresir]

This is a blatent attempt to circumvent the rules to gain an advantage, in other words --CHEATING. I will implement the most severe penalty I can, and that would be to call the lead runner out for passing and call the trail runner out for running the bases in reverse order. And I dare a coach who just tried to cheat to come out and argue with me. He will be in the parking lot very quickly.

[MikeStrybel]

Try this on for size:

8-2-3 affirms that a runner who misses a base while advancing may not return to touch it after a following runner has scored. A proper appeal did occur. The batter hit the first pitch and the coach informed you that the proper runners were not on their bases. If you have a partner, confer. If not, you messed up by making the ball live but the appeal does not have to happen before the pitch. Yes, the defensive coach was sleeping but is not expected to look for deception on teh part of the other team. That is your job.

3-3-1g (4) - A coach, player, substitute or other bench personnel shall not commit any unsportsmanlinke act to include, but not limited to, behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

At minimum, you have two ejections. Neither runner can deny that they didn't know where they should be at the start of the play. The coach should be dumped if you believe he was aware or instigated the deception. This isn't a court of law, you simply have to believe he conspired.

It is a stretch but you are also able to forfeit the game under 4-4-1d, since the team's deception was done in order to end the game. Let the state deal with the protest. Document the matter correctly and the head coach won't have a leg to stand on for the protest.

I welcome any feedback about these thoughts.

[bob jenkins]

There's a FED interp to the effect that you call R1 out for passing, R2 out for running the bases in reverse and EJ the coach.

[MikeStrybel]

Agreed but that doesn't penalize the players for knowingly participating in a play that betrays fair play. Dump them all after calling the outs. The money we make isn't enough for dealing with this LL stuff. Forfeit the game and let the state, conference, league handle the coach and players.

As another wrote, look at the numbers, not the faces. When I log a conference, I note who is at bat and on base. That way a coach cannot tell me that he still has a conference or two left to burn. It's a good habit that takes ten seconds to record and saves the day when this happens.

[dash_riprock]

3 EJs and two outs is a penalty that fits the crime. And I won't listen to anyone except the new head coach, and I won't talk to him until the ejectees are out of sight and sound (the clock is running).

[DG]

2011 BRD number 427.

Now what do you do with the play that happened before the discovery?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by DG

2011 BRD number 427.

Now what do you do with the play that happened before the discovery?

Undo it. The inning ended before the batter did anything.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by DG

2011 BRD number 427.

Now what do you do with the play that happened before the discovery?

What is the play?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

3 EJs and two outs is a penalty that fits the crime. And I won't listen to anyone except the new head coach, and I won't talk to him until the ejectees are out of sight and sound (the clock is running).

Dash has it right....... This is the only way that the situation should end.... 2 out, 3 ejections (both runners & the OC). Just make damn sure you are correct as to who was where. Go to the score books if you have to but once you find it, you get 3 EJ's and that's all there is to it.

[DG]

Ok, I see I was not clear on what I was asking so let me rephrase.

Bottom 7th, tie game, 0 outs.

Batter hits a double, he is a slow runner. Next batter is fastest player on the team and he is intentional walked. Defensive coach goes to mound to talk with defense. Offensive coach calls runners over for discussion. When play resumes slow runner is on first and fast runner is on second. Batter hits first pitch for a hit, fast runner scores. Defensive coach comes out to complain that runners swapped.

I think we established two outs per FED interp, and some ejections (opinions vary on how many).

Now what do you do with the base hit that happened before the discovery?

[Gramps]

Look at the last sentence in 7.01

7.01 -- A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when that runner touches it before being put out. The runner is then entitled to it until put out or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base. If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his/her pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

This is an automatic out according to J/R.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Try this on for size:

8-2-3 affirms that a runner who misses a base while advancing may not return to touch it after a following runner has scored. A proper appeal did occur.

In the OP, did either runner miss a base?

3-3-1g (4) - A coach, player, substitute or other bench personnel shall not commit any unsportsmanlinke act to include, but not limited to, behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

At minimum, you have two ejections. Neither runner can deny that they didn't know where they should be at the start of the play. The coach should be dumped if you believe he was aware or instigated the deception. This isn't a court of law, you simply have to believe he conspired.

It is a stretch but you are also able to forfeit the game under 4-4-1d, since the team's deception was done in order to end the game. Let the state deal with the protest. Document the matter correctly and the head coach won't have a leg to stand on for the protest.

My initial reaction was that the coach should be auto-dumped; we need to hold him accountable for this kind of cheating regardless of whether he was aware of or instigated it.

[UmpTTS43]

You asked what do I got?

A lot of paperwork at the least. Minimum 3 ejs and will look for more.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by celebur

In the OP, did either runner miss a base?


My initial reaction was that the coach should be auto-dumped; we need to hold him accountable for this kind of cheating regardless of whether he was aware of or instigated it.

If the runners chose to swap bases then they would not be touching them in their rightful order.

As stated, I wuld probably have three ejections but would make it easy on myself. I can almost guarantee that when I explain to the coach why I just ejected both players after calling them out, he'll behave in a way that will easily demonstrate whether he was complicit or not. Chances are that he was but I have kids and know how to read body language pretty well by now.

Ever seen a player disobey a coach (stealing when told not to, throwing at a batter, taking out a fielder on a slide, etc.)? I have and it's pretty funny to see the coach implode.