Eligibility/substitution

[ManInBlue]

FED Case Book CR2: Jones runs for F2 in the first inning, but Smith runs for F2 in the third inning.

Is this a substitution? Is Jones eligible to enter the game on defense? Can he be used again as a CR for F2?

I had never considered the first 2 parts of this question - although I lean toward "CR does not effect substitutions". I'm thinking though that Jones cannot be used as a CR any longer.

Another sitch: CR11 - F2 singles and is replaced by a courtesy runner. B2 walks. Before the next pitch, the CR is replaced by another CR. Is this a substitution? Can the original CR return in any capacity?

Any help would be appreciated.

[mbyron]

COURTESY RUNNERS
1. At any time, the team at bat may use courtesy runners for the pitcher and/or
the catcher.
2. The same individual runner may not be used for both positions (pitcher and
catcher) during the game.
3. Neither the pitcher nor the catcher will be required to leave the game under
such circumstances.
4. Players who have participated in the game in any other capacity are ineligible
to serve as courtesy runners.
5. A player may not run as a courtesy runner for the pitcher or the catcher and
then be used as a substitute for another player in that half inning. If an injury,
illness or ejection occurs and no other runners are available, the courtesy
runner may be used as a substitute.
6. The umpire-in-chief shall record courtesy runner participation and also
announce it to the scorer.
7. A player who violates the courtesy-runner rule is considered to be an illegal
substitute.
a. Should an injury, illness or ejection occur to the courtesy runner, another
courtesy runner for the pitcher or catcher may run.

So, no, this is not a substitution. As long as Jones and Smith have not participated in the game, they may both run for F2 on different occasions.

Yes, Jones may enter on defense, which would not violate provision 5.

If Jones enters the game as a sub, he is no longer eligible to be a CR under provision 4.

[MrUmpire]

NFHS Rule Book, page 64

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Another sitch: CR11 - F2 singles and is replaced by a courtesy runner. B2 walks. Before the next pitch, the CR is replaced by another CR. Is this a substitution? Can the original CR return in any capacity?.

Also not a substitution, and the original CR can enter in (almost) any capacity.

[ManInBlue]

I had always thought it didn't matter - as is the rule. However, I had someone say otherwise - and now I'm over-thinking it.

Then with the CR running for a CR sounded more like a substitution - b/c the first CR is for F2, but the 2nd CR is now for a CR.

CR11 - F2 singles and is replaced by a courtesy runner. B2 walks. Before the next pitch, the CR is replaced by another CR.

Am I getting myself into "that" trap? - stop me before this goes on for 4 pages!!



edit to add: bob's post submitted while I was typing...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

NFHS Rule Book, page 64

Actually, these plays appear in the 2011 Case book, pp. 91-92. Here's the one MIB is "overthinking":

CR 10 SITUATION: F2 singles and is replaced by a courtesy runner. B2 walks.
Before the next pitch, the courtesy runner is replaced by another courtesy runner.
RULING: Legal. A courtesy runner may be replaced by another legal courtesy
runner at anytime.

@MIB: do you not have the rulings with the situations, or do you just not believe them?

[BK47]

Case Book 2011, Page 91.
CR 9 SITUATION: F1 singles and is replaced at first by a courtesy runner. On the next pitch, the courtesy runner steals second base and sprains his ankle, but is safe on the slide. Does F1 have to replace the courtesy runner? RULING: No. Any legal substitute may become the courtesy runner. In this case, if no legal substitute is available, F1 shall return to run.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Actually, these plays appear in the 2011 Case book, pp. 91-92. Here's the one MIB is "overthinking":



@MIB: do you not have the rulings with the situations, or do you just not believe them?

I have them and I believe them. The rulings don't mention what replacing one CR with another does to the eligibility of the first one. The rule tells us that the CR is not considered a substitute FOR the STARTER (F1/F2) for whom he is running. That's the end of what it tells us.

I get it, and I'm good with it - but I may "go there" just for kicks.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Actually, these plays appear in the 2011 Case book, pp. 91-92. Here's the one MIB is "overthinking":

He had the casebook. I was merely suggesting that reading the rule might help. Between the two, the answers can be divined.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

I have them and I believe them. The rulings don't mention what replacing one CR with another does to the eligibility of the first one. The rule tells us that the CR is not considered a substitute FOR the STARTER (F1/F2) for whom he is running. That's the end of what it tells us.

I get it, and I'm good with it - but I may "go there" just for kicks.

Gotcha. I don't think replacing one CR with another counts as a sub, so all of the same rules and restrictions apply.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

He had the casebook. I was merely suggesting that reading the rule might help. Between the two, the answers can be divined.

These are FED rules - is anything "divine?"

Hey guys, thanks for the input. You cleared up my initial thoughts. I have to admit, I had not read the CB play with a CR entering for another - and that had me slightly stumped - but a CR is a CR period - still an eligible sub. Good deal. I hate when a respected party makes comments that make you question what you knew to be correct.

For the record - I have BOTH the rule book and the case book - and know the rules - I had been confused by 'others' comments, then started thinking and reading - and nothing was clearing up on my own.

It's all good - and I don't think I can even "yeah but" this one any farther, even just for the fun of it.

[David B]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

These are FED rules - is anything "divine?"

Hey guys, thanks for the input. You cleared up my initial thoughts. I have to admit, I had not read the CB play with a CR entering for another - and that had me slightly stumped - but a CR is a CR period - still an eligible sub. Good deal. I hate when a respected party makes comments that make you question what you knew to be correct.

For the record - I have BOTH the rule book and the case book - and know the rules - I had been confused by 'others' comments, then started thinking and reading - and nothing was clearing up on my own.

It's all good - and I don't think I can even "yeah but" this one any farther, even just for the fun of it.

Good question to make you think. I think the biggest problem is that often coaches want to replace the CR with another CR who is NOT eligible. That is what we see most of the time. No matter how many times you remind them, here comes the same runner to run for F2 who just ran for F1 etc.,

Thanks
David