Left Early on a Caught Fly

[johnnyg08]

So I think you have to read the base award case plays since that's what's going to determine what is or is not a play. Would that be right...when it's not in the rules, we have to go do authoritative opinion on how certain plays are interpreted.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

So I think you have to read the base award case plays since that's what's going to determine what is or is not a play. Would that be right...when it's not in the rules, we have to go do authoritative opinion on how certain plays are interpreted.

Yes, except the case plays seem to cover anything you could think of EXCEPT a catch. None answers the simple question of "Is a catch a play". Before this thread was born, I have always assumed "of course it is".

[NFump]

Which is probably why it's not covered.

[johnnyg08]

From MLBUM:

5.6 Awarding bases on wild throws

In making such awards, keep the following points in mind:

1. If the throw is the first play by an infielder and the batter-runner has not reached first base when the throw was made, award all runners from time of pitch

2. If the throw is the first play by an infielder and all runners including the batter-runner have advanced a base when the throw was made, award all runners from their position at the time of the throw

3. If the throw is not the first play by an infielder or the throw is made by an outfielder, award all runners from their position at the time of the throw

My thoughts:

Interps 1 and 2 deal with the first play by an infielder and uses the word "throw" as being the first play. It does not mention catch or fielding an in-play batted ball. We have to assume that a catch or fielding a ball can't be the first play because the base award interps all use the word "throw" and the runner and B/R's position at the time of the throw or the time of pitch

From MLBUM:
The approved ruling of OBR 7.05g provides that when the first throw is by an infielder after runners AND batter have advanced one base, then runners are awarded to bases from their position when the throw was made. (See item 2 above) This can happen on a high fly ball that an infielder goes back to catch but drops, during the time the batter and runners have clearly advanced one bas; then, in attempt to put out the batter-runner, who has already passed first base, the fielder throws the ball into the stands. While it is the first throw by an infielder, the runners, including the batter-runner, had advanced one base before the throw and accordingly are awarded two bases from the base they last touched when the throw was made. Before awarding two bases from the base last touched by the runners, the umpire must judge that all runners -including the batter-runner - have definitely advanced to the next base before the throw was made.

My thoughts:

In the above example of the dropped fly ball by an infielder, this would have to occur with two outs, because with <2 outs R1 would be retreating back to 1B with less than 2 outs and it would not be likely that both R1 and BR would reach their next base on the dropped fly ball by an infielder. Likely, R1 would be forced out at 2B. With two outs, both R1 and B/R would be "running it out" and would be able to reach the next base without a problem. Then we'd have a TOT award instead of a TOP award.

If I recall correctly, your example involves a runner who is stealing on the play with < 2 outs. The ball is caught and in an attempt to double the runner off of 1B, the ball is thrown into DBT. The award based on the MLBUM interp is two bases from the time of pitch because the throw was the first play by an infielder. (it said nothing about the catch)...we have a couple of inferences to make regarding the above example, but it seems pretty clear to me on the appropriate base award.

Did I clear anything up? I'm going to post this now, then go back and read the OP again...because I've typed too much to lose all of this. My apologies if I missed anything of relevance in the OP

[Eastshire]

It doesn't necessarily follow from just what you posted that a catch isn't a play.

"If the throw is the first play" doesn't mean that only throws are plays. For example, if F4 tries to tag R1 and then wings it into the first base stands, the throw is the second play. It could be possible that a catch would be like a tag.

We still haven't found explicit proof one way or the other. It's not listed as a play but it's not listed as not a play either.

[johnnyg08]

Okay, here's some more from MLBUM regarding a play or attempted play:

5.1 Play or attempted play

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases and appeal plays 7.05g and 7.10 respectively.

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag the runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant) A fake or feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted play.

Example:

4. Runners on first and third, runner on first stealing as ground ball is hit to shortstop. The shortstop feints a throw home but does not throw-instead throw to first and into the stands; during this time the runner from first has rounded second base.

Ruling: The feint by the shortstop toward home is not considered a play or attempted play; thus the throw beyond first is the first play by an infielder and awards should be made from the time of the pitch.

[johnnyg08]

Okay, here's one that might help as well...it doesn't exactly match the OP, but we might be able to fit a square peg into a round hole.

From MLBUM:

(13) The following play occurred in a Major League game and leads to a number of questions regarding appeal plays. The rulings below provide insight into various regulations concerning appeals and awards.

Play: R1, no outs, hit-and-run. Batter hits a line drive which strikes the pitcher in the back, flies into the air, and it caught in flight by F5 for an out. The runner on first is nearly to 2B when the ball is caught. The third baseman throws to first, attempting to double the runner off first base; however, his throw is wild and goes into DBT. At the time of the throw, the runner had not quite reached 2b. When the ball goes out of play, the runner from first has rounded second base (touching second as he rounded it) and is several steps towards shortstop.

a. What is the proper award?
Ruling: Third base-two bases from the time of the pitch because this is the first play by an infielder My words: (notice the first play was not the catch)

b. What if the runner is beyond 2b at the time of the throw? Is the award then home?
Ruling: No, the award is still third because the throw was the first play by an infielder. NOTE: See Section 5.11 for situations when a runner is initially awarded two bases from his position at the time of the throw, after which he is subsequently awarded two bases from his original base

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Okay, here's one that might help as well...it doesn't exactly match the OP, but we might be able to fit a square peg into a round hole.

From MLBUM:

(13) The following play occurred in a Major League game and leads to a number of questions regarding appeal plays. The rulings below provide insight into various regulations concerning appeals and awards.

Play: R1, no outs, hit-and-run. Batter hits a line drive which strikes the pitcher in the back, flies into the air, and it caught in flight by F5 for an out. The runner on first is nearly to 2B when the ball is caught. The third baseman throws to first, attempting to double the runner off first base; however, his throw is wild and goes into DBT. At the time of the throw, the runner had not quite reached 2b. When the ball goes out of play, the runner from first has rounded second base (touching second as he rounded it) and is several steps towards shortstop.

a. What is the proper award?
Ruling: Third base-two bases from the time of the pitch because this is the first play by an infielder My words: (notice the first play was not the catch)

b. What if the runner is beyond 2b at the time of the throw? Is the award then home?
Ruling: No, the award is still third because the throw was the first play by an infielder. NOTE: See Section 5.11 for situations when a runner is initially awarded two bases from his position at the time of the throw, after which he is subsequently awarded two bases from his original base

I think this one seals it.

[UmpJM]

johnny,

Good find. I'm embarrassed you beat me to it.

To me, though counterintuitive, this is really pretty simple.

From Rule 2, we have the defintion of "catch":

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; ...

From the MLBUM we have a definition of a "play", as the word is used in the context of 7.05(g):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. ...

Since, by definition, a play can only be made by a fielder who already has possession of the ball, and a catch can only be made by someone who doesn't have possession of the ball, a catch cannot, by definition, be a 7.05(g) play.

JM

[johnnyg08]

5.11 since I'm having so much fun here today. Thank God my daughter is napping.

From MLBUM:

5.11 Award made from original base after catch

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch much retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base - see section 5.12), and the award is then made from his original base. (see casebook comments following OBR 7.05i)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and his between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into DBT. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (part of mbcrowder's OP) (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch the base. Furthermore, because the runner was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base)

There you go guys. I'm curious to see your thoughts.

Thanks for the discussion and making me dig to find this.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Okay, here's some more from MLBUM regarding a play or attempted play:

5.1 Play or attempted play

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases and appeal plays 7.05g and 7.10 respectively.

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag the runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant) A fake or feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted play.

Example:

4. Runners on first and third, runner on first stealing as ground ball is hit to shortstop. The shortstop feints a throw home but does not throw-instead throw to first and into the stands; during this time the runner from first has rounded second base.

Ruling: The feint by the shortstop toward home is not considered a play or attempted play; thus the throw beyond first is the first play by an infielder and awards should be made from the time of the pitch.

This is perhaps the strongest thing we've seen. Two aspects to examine here as I see them is

1) What is the difference between a batter-runner and a runner?
2) What is the timing on possession of a catch related to the effort of the fielder in retiring the batter-runner by catching the ball?

On 1 I don't think there's a material difference for the purpose of this rule. If F2 fields a bunt and tries to tag the BR and then wings the ball into the stands trying to retire R2 at third I think the throw would be the second play. So a catch would be a legitimate effort to actually retire a runner.

What you don't have is possession of the ball until the end of the effort. This is still somewhat lacking as you do end up with a player having possession having made a legitimate effort to retire the runner.

So the key question from this is do you have to have possession at the start of the effort to have a play?

I think that's implied here, but it's not explicit.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

On 1 I don't think there's a material difference for the purpose of this rule. If F2 fields a bunt and tries to tag the BR and then wings the ball into the stands trying to retire R2 at third I think the throw would be the second play. So a catch would be a legitimate effort to actually retire a runner.

IMO, you're close. I believe that the tag attempt would be the first play. Then the second play would be the throw.

Gaining possession of the ball, from what I read and typed, is not a play.

Reread the part where is states that a play dictates what happens after a fielder gains possession.

Other thoughts on that? Open to feedback either way.