Left Early on a Caught Fly

[johnnyg08]

Okay, here's one that might help as well...it doesn't exactly match the OP, but we might be able to fit a square peg into a round hole.

From MLBUM:

(13) The following play occurred in a Major League game and leads to a number of questions regarding appeal plays. The rulings below provide insight into various regulations concerning appeals and awards.

Play: R1, no outs, hit-and-run. Batter hits a line drive which strikes the pitcher in the back, flies into the air, and it caught in flight by F5 for an out. The runner on first is nearly to 2B when the ball is caught. The third baseman throws to first, attempting to double the runner off first base; however, his throw is wild and goes into DBT. At the time of the throw, the runner had not quite reached 2b. When the ball goes out of play, the runner from first has rounded second base (touching second as he rounded it) and is several steps towards shortstop.

a. What is the proper award?
Ruling: Third base-two bases from the time of the pitch because this is the first play by an infielder My words: (notice the first play was not the catch)

b. What if the runner is beyond 2b at the time of the throw? Is the award then home?
Ruling: No, the award is still third because the throw was the first play by an infielder. NOTE: See Section 5.11 for situations when a runner is initially awarded two bases from his position at the time of the throw, after which he is subsequently awarded two bases from his original base

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Okay, here's one that might help as well...it doesn't exactly match the OP, but we might be able to fit a square peg into a round hole.

From MLBUM:

(13) The following play occurred in a Major League game and leads to a number of questions regarding appeal plays. The rulings below provide insight into various regulations concerning appeals and awards.

Play: R1, no outs, hit-and-run. Batter hits a line drive which strikes the pitcher in the back, flies into the air, and it caught in flight by F5 for an out. The runner on first is nearly to 2B when the ball is caught. The third baseman throws to first, attempting to double the runner off first base; however, his throw is wild and goes into DBT. At the time of the throw, the runner had not quite reached 2b. When the ball goes out of play, the runner from first has rounded second base (touching second as he rounded it) and is several steps towards shortstop.

a. What is the proper award?
Ruling: Third base-two bases from the time of the pitch because this is the first play by an infielder My words: (notice the first play was not the catch)

b. What if the runner is beyond 2b at the time of the throw? Is the award then home?
Ruling: No, the award is still third because the throw was the first play by an infielder. NOTE: See Section 5.11 for situations when a runner is initially awarded two bases from his position at the time of the throw, after which he is subsequently awarded two bases from his original base

I think this one seals it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I think this one seals it.

I agree - this is what I was looking for. Even HOPING for.

[NFump]

No he gets third in this instance because he hadn't reached second at time of throw so in this case the award is the same TOT or TOP first play doesn't matter. In order for this to be an example of a catch not being a play the runner would have had to have reached second before the throw then the first play rule comes into effect.

[UmpJM]

johnny,

Good find. I'm embarrassed you beat me to it.

To me, though counterintuitive, this is really pretty simple.

From Rule 2, we have the defintion of "catch":

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; ...

From the MLBUM we have a definition of a "play", as the word is used in the context of 7.05(g):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. ...

Since, by definition, a play can only be made by a fielder who already has possession of the ball, and a catch can only be made by someone who doesn't have possession of the ball, a catch cannot, by definition, be a 7.05(g) play.

JM

[NFump]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

johnny,

Good find. I'm embarrassed you beat me to it.


To me, though counterintuitive, this is really pretty simple.

From Rule 2, we have the defintion of "catch":



From the MLBUM we have a definition of a "play", as the word is used in the context of 7.05(g):



Since, by definition, a play can only be made by a fielder who already has possession of the ball, and a catch can only be made by someone who doesn't have possession of the ball, a catch cannot, by definition, be a 7.05(g) play.

JM

First, the play johnny posted proved nothing, first play doesn't even come into it. Award was same TOP or TOT.

It's pretty obvious you need possession before the legitimate effort, just as you have to have possession before you have a catch, thus a catch can only be made by a player WITH possession. The sticking point is the effort part. Is there a legitimate effort being made by the fielder in catching a fly ball to retire a runner? Legitimate meaning legal, effort meaning action.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by NFump

First, the play johnny posted proved nothing, first play doesn't even come into it. Award was same TOP or TOT.

It's pretty obvious you need possession before the legitimate effort, just as you have to have possession before you have a catch, thus a catch can only be made by a player WITH possession. The sticking point is the effort part. Is there a legitimate effort being made by the fielder in catching a fly ball to retire a runner? Legitimate meaning legal, effort meaning action.

I don't think the sticking point is the "effort" at all...how doesn't that play wrap up mbcrowder's question on the proper base award.

It not about me being right or wrong all I did was copy it from MLBUM...but now I think you're starting to make up things that aren't there.

[NFump]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I don't think the sticking point is the "effort" at all...how doesn't that play wrap up mbcrowder's question on the proper base award.

It not about me being right or wrong all I did was copy it from MLBUM...but now I think you're starting to make up things that aren't there.

Does the fielder after catching the ball have possession? Yes, then the possession part is not in question, it's the effort part, did he make a legitimate effort to retire the runner, with possession? Although your play addresses the award part of the play it doesn't address whether the play was a first play. The rule didn't come into effect. The only comes into play when the runner obtains his advance base before the throw, thus the necessity to distinguish between time of pitch and time of throw. In your play the runner was "just short of second when throw was made". I didn't make up your play, just pointed out what was wrong with it in relation to whether a catch was a play or not.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by NFump

it doesn't address whether the play was a first play.

Yes, it did address it. It came right out and said "The throw is the first play." Go and read the entire ruling again and you'll find it.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by NFump

Does the fielder after catching the ball have possession? Yes, then the possession part is not in question, it's the effort part, did he make a legitimate effort to retire the runner, with possession? Although your play addresses the award part of the play it doesn't address whether the play was a first play. The rule didn't come into effect. The only comes into play when the runner obtains his advance base before the throw, thus the necessity to distinguish between time of pitch and time of throw. In your play the runner was "just short of second when throw was made". I didn't make up your play, just pointed out what was wrong with it in relation to whether a catch was a play or not.

NFump,

Do you always disregard plain and simple facts when they don't agree with your world view? Can you read? Let's try this again.

Here is the case play, verbatim and in its entirety, from the MLBUM. (It is in the "Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings" section in the chapter on Appeals and Awards.)

(13) The following play occurred in a Major League game and leads to a number of questions regarding appeal plays. The rulings below provide insight into various regulations concerning appeals and awards.

Play: R1, no outs, hit-and-run. Batter hits a line drive which strikes the pitcher in the back, flies into the air, and is caught in flight by F5 for an out. The runner on first is nearly to second base when the ball is caught. The third baseman throws to first, attempting to double the runner off first base; however, his throw is wild and goes into the stands. At the time of the throw, the runner had not quite reached second base. When the ball goes out of play, the runner from first has rounded second base (touching second as he rounded it) and is several steps towards shortstop.

a. What is the proper award? Ruling: Third base-two bases from the time of the pitch because this is the first play by an infielder.

b. What if the runner is beyond 2b at the time of the throw? Is the award then home? Ruling: No, the award is still third because the throw was the first play by an infielder. NOTE: See Section 5.11 for situations when a runner is initially awarded two bases from his position at the time of the throw, after which he is subsequently awarded two bases from his original base.

Would you care to try again, or can you really not read?

Because, it clearly and unequivocally states that the throw is the "first play" (again, twice), and that it is therefore a TOP award - even if the runner is between 2B and 3B at the TOT.

JM

P.S. This is from the 2009 MLBUM. It does not appear in the 2002 edition.

[NFump]

You can't read what isn't there nor can you disregard what isn't there. Even after reading my post stating my version was 2002 you still posted that smart *** reply rather than using tact and simply stating it was in another version. Then I could reply with "If that's what is says then a catch is not a play for the purposes of this rule. I don't have a problem with that." Now, I admit I should have asked johnny which version of the MLBUM he got that from, especially when he said the making things up part but I didn't. My apologies johnny.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by NFump

First, the play johnny posted proved nothing, first play doesn't even come into it. Award was same TOP or TOT.

I disagree. The ruling specifically says the throw is the first play by the infielder.

It's pretty obvious you need possession before the legitimate effort, just as you have to have possession before you have a catch, thus a catch can only be made by a player WITH possession. The sticking point is the effort part. Is there a legitimate effort being made by the fielder in catching a fly ball to retire a runner? Legitimate meaning legal, effort meaning action.

A catch is defined as securing possession. You don't have possession until you have caught the ball. A player who already has possession, by definition, cannot catch the ball.

[NFump]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I disagree. The ruling specifically says the throw is the first play by the infielder.



A catch is defined as securing possession. You don't have possession until you have caught the ball. A player who already has possession, by definition, cannot catch the ball.

The ruling or johnny?. That play in my MLBUM (2002) has nothing about the ball hitting the pitcher first, just a line drive to the shortstop, who catches it, then, in an attempt to double the runner up, throws the ball into the stands. The runner is quite obviously stated to be short of second base(in both mine and johnny's play). As for the award it is the same TOT or TOP and whether the catch was or was not a play did not factor in.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? You can't catch the ball without possessing it.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by NFump

First, the play johnny posted proved nothing, first play doesn't even come into it. Award was same TOP or TOT.

It's pretty obvious you need possession before the legitimate effort, just as you have to have possession before you have a catch, thus a catch can only be made by a player WITH possession. The sticking point is the effort part. Is there a legitimate effort being made by the fielder in catching a fly ball to retire a runner? Legitimate meaning legal, effort meaning action.

NFump,

You didn't actually read the play johnny posted, did you?

If you were to read it, you would see that it unequivocally states that:

1. The throw was the first play by an infielder, even though he had just made a catch (it actually says that twice).

2. Whether the runner was between 1st & 2nd when the throw was released or 2nd & 3rd, the proper award is 3B (this was the "b" ruling - perhaps you didn't get that far).

3. Because a first play throw that goes out of play is a TOP award.

I mean, I don't kow what to say.

Do you think johnny just "made up" what he posted? He didn't. It's in my copy of the MLBUM too.

Perhaps you think the authors of the MLBUM were being imprecise or sloppy with their language.

Sorry, you're wrong.

JM

[johnnyg08]

5.11 since I'm having so much fun here today. Thank God my daughter is napping.

From MLBUM:

5.11 Award made from original base after catch

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch much retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base - see section 5.12), and the award is then made from his original base. (see casebook comments following OBR 7.05i)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and his between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into DBT. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (part of mbcrowder's OP) (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch the base. Furthermore, because the runner was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base)

There you go guys. I'm curious to see your thoughts.

Thanks for the discussion and making me dig to find this.