Catching Ettiquette

[jdmara]

Sorry Gentleman that I missed all of the action the past day...I guess I'll explain myself as it seems I've been misread with my sarcastic comment and poorly formed response.

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Hmmmmmmm. Poor John. It's a shame he didn't have your abilities. He might have become a top plate umpire. Oh, wait. He was THE top plate umpire.

Obviously you missed the sarcasm, next time I'll put fancy brackets or something around it to differentiate it. I thought it was pretty obvious since nothing was said about John before my initial comment and then you put a quote of his and say I disagree. *shrug*

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Josh,

No, you have not.

You do not understand what "timing" is, and I assure you there is no "mechanism".

JM

You're absolutely right, I oversimplified my statement about a catcher's techniquie and then equated it to timing. It was a bad choice of words.

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

So basically, you are saying that you decided the pitch before it was through the zone. If you ignore F2 (as you stated), then you are deciding the call well before the ball crosses the plate and that is a fact. I've trained enough rookies to know that what you are doing is using tunnel vision and deciding the call before it happens. I can also guarantee you that you do not see very many breaking balls (good ones) because these have to be tracked all the way to the glove in order to decide what they are.

So you can discount John McSherry if you wish but I will tell you this, he was a fantastic man at the plate and a great teacher. His videos are still used by many instructors to teach rookies how to use everything at their disposal to make a proper decision on a pitch. I doubt very much if you could ever attain anything close to what John did.

Damn, again I let the BS at the LLWS and a total moron get me going.

Ozzy-

As said above, I was not discounting McSherry, I was being sarcastic. I have seen some clips of his videos and I would never discount them by any stretch of the imagination. I was trying to point that I don't let what the catcher does after he catches the pitch effect whether it's a ball or strike (ie. if the catcher muffs the catch, it's a ball or if he frames the pitch it could become a ball or strike).

The rest of your post was a given hopefully with the above comment taken into account.

.......

Did I miss any other comment I should address? Let me know gentleman

-Josh

[UmpJM]

Josh,

Originally Posted by jdmara

I don't care where the catcher catches the pitch. I've seen what I need to see before then. ...

No, you have not.

I just use him catching the ball as a timing mechanism. ...

-Josh

You do not understand what "timing" is, and I assure you there is no "mechanism".

JM

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Josh,

Originally Posted by jdmara
I don't care where the catcher catches the pitch. I've seen what I need to see before then. ...

No, you have not.


JM

Wow. Did someone move the strike zone away from over the plate and not tell us?

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Wow. Did someone move the strike zone away from over the plate and not tell us?

Rich,

Not that I'm aware of. Why do you ask? I certainly didn't suggest any such thing.

My comment was in reference to the proper way to track a pitch and proper timing in calling a pitch.

Of course, since you're a coach, I wouldn't expect you to understand any of that.

Josh, on the other hand, suggests that he is an umpire. He needs to understand the proper way to call pitches if he hopes to be any good at it. And, based on his post, he does not understand.

JM

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Rich,

Not that I'm aware of. Why do you ask? I certainly didn't suggest any such thing.

My comment was in reference to the proper way to track a pitch and proper timing in calling a pitch.

Of course, since you're a coach, I wouldn't expect you to understand any of that.

Josh, on the other hand, suggests that he is an umpire. He needs to understand the proper way to call pitches if he hopes to be any good at it. And, based on his post, he does not understand.

JM

Nonsense. You track a pitch through the zone. You don't have to see it or follow it after that ... kind of what Josh said. And he said he used the slap of the mitt as a timing mechanism. That isn't mine, but what's wrong with doing that?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Josh,



No, you have not.



You do not understand what "timing" is, and I assure you there is no "mechanism".

JM

Huh? Do you know this Josh guy? Where did that come from?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I don't care where the catcher catches the pitch. I've seen what I need to see before then. I just use him catching the ball as a timing mechanism. If I'm getting flack from the coach because the catcher is framing, I give the catcher an opportunity (between innings) to let the coach know where the pitch was and it was framed nicely.

-Josh

So basically, you are saying that you decided the pitch before it was through the zone. If you ignore F2 (as you stated), then you are deciding the call well before the ball crosses the plate and that is a fact. I've trained enough rookies to know that what you are doing is using tunnel vision and deciding the call before it happens. I can also guarantee you that you do not see very many breaking balls (good ones) because these have to be tracked all the way to the glove in order to decide what they are.

So you can discount John McSherry if you wish but I will tell you this, he was a fantastic man at the plate and a great teacher. His videos are still used by many instructors to teach rookies how to use everything at their disposal to make a proper decision on a pitch. I doubt very much if you could ever attain anything close to what John did.

Damn, again I let the BS at the LLWS and a total moron get me going.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

So basically, you are saying that you decided the pitch before it was through the zone. If you ignore F2 (as you stated), then you are deciding the call well before the ball crosses the plate and that is a fact. I've trained enough rookies to know that what you are doing is using tunnel vision and deciding the call before it happens. I can also guarantee you that you do not see very many breaking balls (good ones) because these have to be tracked all the way to the glove in order to decide what they are.

I completely respect your opinion on here, Ozzy, and normally agree with you. However, it is EXACTLY on breaking balls that we should not let the location of the catcher when he catches it sway our thinking. Not watching the glove doesn't mean we are necessarily using tunnel vision. I do stress with younger umps that they MUST watch the pitch ALL THE WAY through the zone - not just at the front, and definitely not just when it's way out front before the plate as some want to do.

Proper timing will allow you to absorb what you saw without calling what you THOUGHT you were going to see when the pitch hadn't even arrived yet.

Now that I've said that - one caveat. I can count the guys I've umpired that throw in the 90's on 1 finger (and in the interest of full disclosure, my zone was probably not at its best that game - to work at that speed consistently, I admit needing a lot more exposure to that speed); and 80's on both hands. McSherry dealt with 90's and the occasional 100. I will fully admit that at those speeds, the location of the glove might have some informatino for you. And at those speeds, the time that the ball is between plate and glove is REALLY miniscule.

But at 70's and low 80's, I think there's a bigger danger in missing pitches if you DO watch it past the back of the plate. Both erroneous strikes and erroneous balls.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Now that I've said that - one caveat. I can count the guys I've umpired that throw in the 90's on 1 finger.

Try 80mph from 46 feet. That ball gets on you quicker than a blink. Faster than MLB stuff. I've seen it twice. The catcher plays a HUGE roll, but yes, you've got to be ready for off-speed stuff. It ain't easy out there.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Try 80mph from 46 feet. That ball gets on you quicker than a blink. Faster than MLB stuff. I've seen it twice. The catcher plays a HUGE roll, but yes, you've got to be ready for off-speed stuff. It ain't easy out there.

Done that with the larger ball. And I agree. I find that release point easier to call, actually.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not watching the glove doesn't mean we are necessarily using tunnel vision.

It absolutely means you are using tunnel vision.

I do stress with younger umps that they MUST watch the pitch ALL THE WAY through the zone - not just at the front, and definitely not just when it's way out front before the plate as some want to do.

In order to be proficient as a plate umpire, you have to track the ball all the way to the mitt. YOU HAVE TO TRACK THE BALL ALL THE WAY TO THE MITT. Did I mention that YOU HAVE TO TRACK THE BALL ALL THE WAY TO THE MITT?

Proper timing will allow you to absorb what you saw without calling what you THOUGHT you were going to see when the pitch hadn't even arrived yet.

That is why, YOU HAVE TO TRACK THE BALL ALL THE WAY TO THE MITT.

But at 70's and low 80's, I think there's a bigger danger in missing pitches if you DO watch it past the back of the plate. Both erroneous strikes and erroneous balls.

EEK. I'm not going to say it.

More pitches are missed due to not tracking the ball completely than by just watching it through the zone.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Damn, again I let the BS at the LLWS and a total moron get me going.

Easy now Ozzy.

The old "call the ball, not the situation" is classic sophomore year umpire stuff. He'll learn. (hopefully)

p.s. I've had to be unscrewed out of the ceiling over this LL nonsense. It's hit way too close home for me this year.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Can you all help me understand how you view "pulling" pitches and whether or not this is a hot-button issue for you?

For me, pulling pitches never results in a ball being called a strike but can result in a strike being called a ball. Please tell your catchers: If you think it's a strike, stick the thing and give me a good look at it. I want it to be a strike too. If you think it's a ball, throw it back to the pitcher. Be honest.

[briancurtin]

Pretty much agree with what was already said. One thing that I do view as disrespectful is catchers who hold pitches and say they do it just to make sure you have a good view of it. You know damn well I saw that pitch and it was too far in. Catch the ball, throw the ball back.