F8 carries ball over fence

[greymule]

Yes, my MLBUM says that first part, but it doesn't say, "A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead."

mcrowder cited the MLBUM as instructing "treat as a caught ball," which is quite different.

In the rule book, I can find only "falls into a bench or stand," "falls across ropes into a crowd," "should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area, [my emphasis]" and so on. It seems to me that falls is in all those examples for a reason. I don't see "enters DBT" or "leaves the field of play" anywhere (in OBR). Several case plays indicate that a fielder can indeed carry a ball into DBT and then make a throw.

For what it's worth, I queried "Hal the Referee" of the Cleveland Plain Dealer 30 years ago about a fielder making a catch, leaping a fence, remaining on his feet, and making a throw from "Row F" of the stands. The answer was "Yes, that's legal."

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Rules basis? Not true in the case of a ball in possession (caught by) a fielder. Catch and carry is 1 base from time of entering DBT.

Yes catch and carry is correct if Fed rule, NCAA and OBR is applicable if fielder falls down otherwise, ball is alive.

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

[greymule]

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

Yes, my MLBUM says that first part, but it doesn't say, "A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead."

I did not quote MLBUM on that, hence no "'s around that statement. That is the interpretation I have been taught.

mcrowder cited the MLBUM as instructing "treat as a caught ball," which is quite different.

Don't see that quote in the MLBUM.

In the rule book, I can find only "falls into a bench or stand," "falls across ropes into a crowd," "should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area, [my emphasis]" and so on. It seems to me that falls is in all those examples for a reason. I don't see "enters DBT" or "leaves the field of play" anywhere (in OBR). Several case plays indicate that a fielder can indeed carry a ball into DBT and then make a throw.

Again DBT and leaving the field of play are two different situations. You can have DBT within the field of play. Once you leave the field of play, the ball is immediately dead.

For what it's worth, I queried "Hal the Referee" of the Cleveland Plain Dealer 30 years ago about a fielder making a catch, leaping a fence, remaining on his feet, and making a throw from "Row F" of the stands. The answer was "Yes, that's legal."

No disrespect to "Hal the Referee", but he is wrong. 30 years ago he may have been right, but that is not the case in today's interpretations.

[MD Longhorn]

This is an odd hair we're splitting here, don't you think? I understand why the distinction of "falls" vs "stays on his feet" is relevant when entering ON FIELD dbt - such as a dugout. I really don't think (but obviously can't prove since this is not stated either way) the rules writers intended there to be a difference between falling into the stands or over the HR fence and jumping into the stands or over the HR fence, and landing on your feet.

If you contend there's a difference there - I can't argue with you... the rules don't say. But it seems to leave a large grey un-ruled-upon area if that's truly the case. One would think that if they wanted one to be treated differently than the other, they would have not only defined how to treat one - they would have defined both.

Our Catch and Carry example of a caught ball is the only one that's really relevant here. I recognize that two of you are calling me out regarding the exact wording from MLBUM. I know I've read this. However, I'm at work still, books are in the car and at home. I will get back to you on the wording that leads me to say to treat bounce/field/carry the same as catch/carry, and not a throw.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

What would your ruling be if F2, after believing there were 3 outs, ran into the dugout with the ball only to find out that there were 2 outs?

I would hope that you would give all base runners 2 bases from the time F2 entered the dugout. This is essentially the same. BR gets 2 bases from time fielder leaves the field.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

No disrespect to "Hal the Referee", but he is wrong. 30 years ago he may have been right, but that is not the case in today's interpretations.

No self-respecting umpire would call themselves a referee anyway.

I'm wondering if he USED to be right though. I vaguely remember from my youth seeing Enos Cabell do exactly this. I surely don't have the rulebook (or MLBUM!) from 1975ish.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

What would your ruling be if F2, after believing there were 3 outs, ran into the dugout with the ball only to find out that there were 2 outs?

I would hope that you would give all base runners 2 bases from the time F2 entered the dugout. This is essentially the same. BR gets 2 bases from time fielder leaves the field.

1 base. (and yes, same reasoning as the OP) Why 2?

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

1 base. (and yes, same reasoning as the OP) Why 2?

Heck, if he didn't fall, why give any at all.

I have tried to spell out the reasoning for the two base awards given different examples. I will bow out and let others banter about. Obviously I am not the one to give you the correct ruling concerning this situation. I wait to see what the real ruling is.

If I am wrong, I will gladly acknowledge it. But I will not take "Hal's" word for it.

[greymule]

From the J/R:

It is an overthrow when . . . (6) a fielder possesses a batted or thrown ball and intentionally enters DBT (the "throw" occurs when he enters DBT).

Note, however, that the J/R does not include unintentional carrying of the ball in its definition of overthrow or distinguish between a caught ball and a mere batted ball.

If F2 wrongly thinks there are 3 outs and carries the ball into the dugout, I guess he intentionally carried it there, even though the rule was designed to prevent an outfielder from falling into the stands intentionally to keep a fast runner on 2B from scoring on a fly ball. Maybe "intentionally and deviously" would be better wording.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing between entering DBT and leaving the field of play. It sounds to me like the same thing.

"Hal the Referee" answered rules questions in all sports, but most of the questions were about baseball. His column was in the Sporting News every week. It probably should have been called, "Hal the Sports Official."

mbcrowder, I wasn't "calling you out." Your statement was credible, and I wanted to know where to find it. Incidentally, "treat as" sounds like BRD language. I'm going to look there.

But I will not take "Hal's" word for it.

I think that by now Hal has gone to that great ballpark in the sky.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by greymule

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

How about it?

Was it intentional? No ? Two bases from the TOP.

[greymule]

From Evans: Professional Interpretation: [after a legal catch] . . .

The player may throw from a dead ball territory and complete a play provided he has not fallen in the dead ball territory (e.g., dugout, stands, photographers' pit).

From the BRD:

If a fielder after making a catch enters DBT, the ball remains alive unless the fielder falls down.

But:

If a fielder, in making a catch, enters a spectator area due to his momentum, the ball is dead and all runners are awarded one base, regardless of whether the fielder has fallen or remains standing.

(What if the fielder enters "stands" that are empty of "spectators"?)

Evans cites 1950 as the time the rule was established, but he does not mention the exception for the "spectator area" (mentioned in J/R and BRD), which I did remember as having come much later. But I can't find anything in any of the books about an uncaught batted ball. Every example of unintentional entering of DBT deals with "after a catch."

However, the BRD does mention intentional carrying into DBT of merely a "batted ball" as causing a two-base award (from time of entering DBT). If unintentional carrying was the same two-base award, would that not be included in that section?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

I don't know what your MLBUM says, but mine says "If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected." copyright 2009

A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead.

I agree. The OP counts as a kind of "overthrow," even though it's not among the examples given in J/R, Chapter 8. The award is 2 bases from the time the ball went out of play. Keep it simple.

Originally Posted by greymule

From the J/R:

It is an overthrow when . . . (6) a fielder possesses a batted or thrown ball and intentionally enters DBT (the "throw" occurs when he enters DBT).

Note, however, that the J/R does not include unintentional carrying of the ball in its definition of overthrow or distinguish between a caught ball and a mere batted ball.

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS. The defense caused a ball that was no longer a batted ball to leave live ball territory. That's the definition of an overthrow, and so the rules pertaining to overthrows (2 bases from TOT) apply.

We're used to "catch and carry," which is a kind of exception to the overthrow rule. The rationale for the exception is that, since the defense caught the batted ball, the runners would have to retouch before advancing. That's why they get just one base for catch and carry.

In the OP, we did NOT have a catch, so the exception would not apply.

[greymule]

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS.

I agree that they are not official definitions. (In fact, overthrow is not defined in the OBR book, so I guess there isn't an official definition.) However, the J/R presents the 6 categories as if all overthrows fall into one of them. If there are other kinds, the J/R should be clear that the 6 are merely examples and do not encompass all overthrows.

I can't quarrel with your reasoning to award two bases by interpreting the OP as "a kind of overthrow." But lacking something in black and white, one could also reasonably judge the OP to be a "kind of catch and carry."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by greymule

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS.

I agree that they are not official definitions. (In fact, overthrow is not defined in the OBR book, so I guess there isn't an official definition.) However, the J/R presents the 6 categories as if all overthrows fall into one of them. If there are other kinds, the J/R should be clear that the 6 are merely examples and do not encompass all overthrows.

I can't quarrel with your reasoning to award two bases by interpreting the OP as "a kind of overthrow." But lacking something in black and white, one could also reasonably judge the OP to be a "kind of catch and carry."

They are not 6 categories of overthrow, or they would be labeled as such.

It can't possibly be a "kind of catch and carry" because it's not a catch. That's crucial, since the basis for the exception to the overthrow award is the fact that the runners must retouch after a catch.