F8 carries ball over fence

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

Yes, my MLBUM says that first part, but it doesn't say, "A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead."

I did not quote MLBUM on that, hence no "'s around that statement. That is the interpretation I have been taught.

mcrowder cited the MLBUM as instructing "treat as a caught ball," which is quite different.

Don't see that quote in the MLBUM.

In the rule book, I can find only "falls into a bench or stand," "falls across ropes into a crowd," "should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area, [my emphasis]" and so on. It seems to me that falls is in all those examples for a reason. I don't see "enters DBT" or "leaves the field of play" anywhere (in OBR). Several case plays indicate that a fielder can indeed carry a ball into DBT and then make a throw.

Again DBT and leaving the field of play are two different situations. You can have DBT within the field of play. Once you leave the field of play, the ball is immediately dead.

For what it's worth, I queried "Hal the Referee" of the Cleveland Plain Dealer 30 years ago about a fielder making a catch, leaping a fence, remaining on his feet, and making a throw from "Row F" of the stands. The answer was "Yes, that's legal."

No disrespect to "Hal the Referee", but he is wrong. 30 years ago he may have been right, but that is not the case in today's interpretations.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

I don't know what your MLBUM says, but mine says "If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected." copyright 2009

A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead.

I agree. The OP counts as a kind of "overthrow," even though it's not among the examples given in J/R, Chapter 8. The award is 2 bases from the time the ball went out of play. Keep it simple.

Originally Posted by greymule

From the J/R:

It is an overthrow when . . . (6) a fielder possesses a batted or thrown ball and intentionally enters DBT (the "throw" occurs when he enters DBT).

Note, however, that the J/R does not include unintentional carrying of the ball in its definition of overthrow or distinguish between a caught ball and a mere batted ball.

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS. The defense caused a ball that was no longer a batted ball to leave live ball territory. That's the definition of an overthrow, and so the rules pertaining to overthrows (2 bases from TOT) apply.

We're used to "catch and carry," which is a kind of exception to the overthrow rule. The rationale for the exception is that, since the defense caught the batted ball, the runners would have to retouch before advancing. That's why they get just one base for catch and carry.

In the OP, we did NOT have a catch, so the exception would not apply.

[greymule]

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS.

I agree that they are not official definitions. (In fact, overthrow is not defined in the OBR book, so I guess there isn't an official definition.) However, the J/R presents the 6 categories as if all overthrows fall into one of them. If there are other kinds, the J/R should be clear that the 6 are merely examples and do not encompass all overthrows.

I can't quarrel with your reasoning to award two bases by interpreting the OP as "a kind of overthrow." But lacking something in black and white, one could also reasonably judge the OP to be a "kind of catch and carry."

[greymule]

If he did have possession before leaving field of play, treat as a caught ball - 1 base (for everyone) from the time he gained possession - per MLBUM.

Can you cite where the MLBUM covers that? I can't find it in my 2000 edition.