F8 carries ball over fence

[kheisner]

OK guys, we had a couple of "rookie" umps, (me & partner...dangerous situation...LOL). We discussed it and and came up with 2-bases from TOT (there doesn't need to be a throw to enforce this, I've been told) Not being sure if we made the right call, I've asked my mentor and other experienced umpires.

My only consultation in this is that they are split 50/50 on if B4 is placed at 2nd or 3rd.

Nobody else on the field had a clue, so they had to buy whatever our 2-man crew of "rookie" umps were selling!! Brief explanation, and the game played on.

[UmpTTS43]

Once the ball is secured in the glove, it is no longer a batted ball and the rules governing base awards associated with batted balls are irrelevant.

7.04(c), one base after fielder makes a legal catch on a fly ball, and falls into DBT, is also irrelevant due to the fact that F8 did not make a legal catch on a fly ball.

This situation is treated the same as a thrown ball going out of play. Same when a fielder goes into the stands or dugout after gaining possession on a thrown ball. ie F2 backing up first base. Award is two bases time of entry into DBT.

Runner should be awarded third if he had attained first at the time of the fileder leaving the field of play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Once the ball is secured in the glove, it is no longer a batted ball and the rules governing base awards associated with batted balls are irrelevant.

Rules basis? A batted ball is a batted ball until it becomes something else. This is not yet a thrown ball.

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

7.04(c), one base after fielder makes a legal catch on a fly ball, and falls into DBT, is also irrelevant due to the fact that F8 did not make a legal catch on a fly ball.

Except that the MLBUM has said the exact opposite since this sitch is not specifically covered in the OBR book.

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

This situation is treated the same as a thrown ball going out of play. Same when a fielder goes into the stands or dugout after gaining possession on a thrown ball. ie F2 backing up first base. Award is two bases time of entry into DBT.

No. This is not a thrown ball.

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Runner should be awarded third if he had attained first at the time of the fileder leaving the field of play.

Award second.

Although it doesn't matter as far as the result of THIS sitch goes, the rule used depends on whether the fielder gained possession while still on the field. And other runners or a different position of BR WOULD make this matter.

If he did have possession before leaving field of play, treat as a caught ball - 1 base (for everyone) from the time he gained possession - per MLBUM.

If he did NOT, consider the similar situation of a ball in flight caught by a jumping outfielder who falls completely out of play, never landing in the field of play - 4 base award. In our case, ground rule double.

The difference would matter if, for example, if BR had not reached first at the time the fielder got the ball... 1st base in the first case, 2nd base in the 2nd. It could matter also if R1 was stealing and had reached 3rd at the time the fielder got the ball - home in the first case, 3rd in the 2nd case.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Rules basis? A batted ball is a batted ball until it becomes something else. This is not yet a thrown ball.

Except that the MLBUM has said the exact opposite since this sitch is not specifically covered in the OBR book.

No. This is not a thrown ball.

Award second.

Although it doesn't matter as far as the result of THIS sitch goes, the rule used depends on whether the fielder gained possession while still on the field. And other runners or a different position of BR WOULD make this matter.

If he did have possession before leaving field of play, treat as a caught ball - 1 base (for everyone) from the time he gained possession - per MLBUM.

If he did NOT, consider the similar situation of a ball in flight caught by a jumping outfielder who falls completely out of play, never landing in the field of play - 4 base award. In our case, ground rule double.

The difference would matter if, for example, if BR had not reached first at the time the fielder got the ball... 1st base in the first case, 2nd base in the 2nd. It could matter also if R1 was stealing and had reached 3rd at the time the fielder got the ball - home in the first case, 3rd in the 2nd case.

What are referencing in the MLBUM? can't find any basis to support your position at this time.

To quote you "Rules basis?" You say the MLBUM says so but can't give relevant references. Let me know when you have sufficient proof to claim my interp is wrong.

[jicecone]

On a batted ball if you deem the act of carrying or throwing the ball into DBT to be intentional, then it is two bases at the time of the intentional act otherwise, it is two base from the time of pitch for a batted ball or TOT for a thrown ball.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

On a batted ball if you deem the act of carrying or throwing the ball into DBT to be intentional, then it is two bases at the time of the intentional act otherwise, it is two base from the time of pitch for a batted ball or TOT for a thrown ball.

Rules basis? Not true in the case of a ball in possession (caught by) a fielder. Catch and carry is 1 base from time of entering DBT.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Rules basis? Not true in the case of a ball in possession (caught by) a fielder. Catch and carry is 1 base from time of entering DBT.

Yes catch and carry is correct if Fed rule, NCAA and OBR is applicable if fielder falls down otherwise, ball is alive.

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

[greymule]

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

What would your ruling be if F2, after believing there were 3 outs, ran into the dugout with the ball only to find out that there were 2 outs?

I would hope that you would give all base runners 2 bases from the time F2 entered the dugout. This is essentially the same. BR gets 2 bases from time fielder leaves the field.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by greymule

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

How about it?

Was it intentional? No ? Two bases from the TOP.

[MD Longhorn]

This is an odd hair we're splitting here, don't you think? I understand why the distinction of "falls" vs "stays on his feet" is relevant when entering ON FIELD dbt - such as a dugout. I really don't think (but obviously can't prove since this is not stated either way) the rules writers intended there to be a difference between falling into the stands or over the HR fence and jumping into the stands or over the HR fence, and landing on your feet.

If you contend there's a difference there - I can't argue with you... the rules don't say. But it seems to leave a large grey un-ruled-upon area if that's truly the case. One would think that if they wanted one to be treated differently than the other, they would have not only defined how to treat one - they would have defined both.

Our Catch and Carry example of a caught ball is the only one that's really relevant here. I recognize that two of you are calling me out regarding the exact wording from MLBUM. I know I've read this. However, I'm at work still, books are in the car and at home. I will get back to you on the wording that leads me to say to treat bounce/field/carry the same as catch/carry, and not a throw.

[greymule]

"Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not."

The current OBR book still emphasizes falls into, not just enters DBT. In some MLB parks, it is entirely possible, if unlikely, that a fielder could make a running catch and then leap a fence (though not one of today's outfield fences) and remain standing. Maybe that's why "spectator seating area" was added.

Local, made-up rules are fine, but they are not relevant.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by greymule

"Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not."

The current OBR book still emphasizes falls into, not just enters DBT. In some MLB parks, it is entirely possible, if unlikely, that a fielder could make a running catch and then leap a fence (though not one of today's outfield fences) and remain standing. Maybe that's why "spectator seating area" was added.

Local, made-up rules are fine, but they are not relevant.

There is DBT (dugout, marked areas on the playing field) and leaving the field of play (over a fence, into spectator areas). Once a ball or player in possession of the ball leaves the field of play, the ball is immediately dead and appropriate awards are given. A fielder cannot make a legal catch then hop into the spectator area and throw from there.

[UmpTTS43]

I don't know what your MLBUM says, but mine says "If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected." copyright 2009

A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead.

[greymule]

Yes, my MLBUM says that first part, but it doesn't say, "A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead."

mcrowder cited the MLBUM as instructing "treat as a caught ball," which is quite different.

In the rule book, I can find only "falls into a bench or stand," "falls across ropes into a crowd," "should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area, [my emphasis]" and so on. It seems to me that falls is in all those examples for a reason. I don't see "enters DBT" or "leaves the field of play" anywhere (in OBR). Several case plays indicate that a fielder can indeed carry a ball into DBT and then make a throw.

For what it's worth, I queried "Hal the Referee" of the Cleveland Plain Dealer 30 years ago about a fielder making a catch, leaping a fence, remaining on his feet, and making a throw from "Row F" of the stands. The answer was "Yes, that's legal."