Little League - grounds for forfeit

[txump81]

LL Tournament Rules 4c. Pitchers once removed from the mound may not return as pitchers.

And the proper way to protest the violation along with the penalty:

B.
The use of an ineligible pitcher;
Ineligibility under this rule applies to violations of Tournament Playing
Rule 4. If an ineligible pitcher delivers one or more pitches to a batter,
that game may be subject to protest and action by the Tournament Committee
in Williamsport, subject to the following conditions:
T-12
1. At any time before the umpire(s) leave the playing field, a formal
(verbal) protest must be made to the umpire-in-chief by the manager
or coach.
2. The umpire-in-chief must immediately consult with the Tournament
Director or District Administrator.
3. Either the umpire-in-chief, Tournament Director or District Administrator
will call the Regional Headquarters at this time.
4. The Regional Director (or his/her designated agent) will contact the
Tournament Committee in Williamsport. The decision of the Tournament
Committee shall be final and binding. NOTE: The Manager is
responsible for verifying the accuracy of the pitching record on the
eligibility affidavit.

Without knowing all the details(when the protest happened, etc.), it is hard to say. The protest should have happened immediately after the game before the umpires left the field and the decision would have come from the Region HQ. We had 2 protests in our District tournament this year(1 MPR, 1 Ineligible pitcher (she pitched 1 pitch in her 8th inning)), but neither resulted in a forfeit-just manager ejections and suspensions.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by txump81

Without knowing all the details(when the protest happened, etc.), it is hard to say. The protest should have happened immediately after the game before the umpires left the field and the decision would have come from the Region HQ. We had 2 protests in our District tournament this year(1 MPR, 1 Ineligible pitcher (she pitched 1 pitch in her 8th inning)), but neither resulted in a forfeit-just manager ejections and suspensions.

Interesting - I don't really know more details, as the information I have comes from the coaches - but I was at the game, it was my son who pitched that third inning, and certainly I do not recall anyone saying anything about it at the time - but after the game could be possible.

I certainly do not think this went beyond the immediate organizers though - unless I am mistaken. Maybe they decided to avoid "manager ejections and suspensions" by just agreeing to the forfeit or something?

[umpjim]

I wasn't there but in our District tournament we had a catcher go to pitcher illegally. It was caught by the scorekeeper after 1 pitch. (They get busy sometimes). The local tournament personnel thought it was an illegal pitcher and called Waco for the forfeit ( I would have thought the same thing). Waco said that that was treated as an illegal sub and change him out. Only Williamsport can forfeit. Make a phone call. You might have been sandbagged by the local guys or they were untrained as were your coaches. Not pointing fingers because the LL tournament process requires a lot of work from people who may not have the time to digest all the finer points.

[txump81]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Only Williamsport can forfeit.

+1. In 1 of our protests(MP violation), the coach protested and the offending coach admitted when questioned the kid didn't bat. The umpires told the coach he was out for 2 games and were headed for the exit when the TD stepped in. They made the call to Region and the suspension was issued.

The Region or above must issue penalties and decisions on protests involving ineligible players and MP from my experience. All that to say-even though everyone knows what will happen, it must come from above.

From what I have learned, the only thing that can be issued at the local level is a suspension due to behavior.

And as kylejt said, it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to prevent an ineligible player from playing-manager, scorekeeper, umpire, opposing manager. How did no one notice this happening?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by txump81

And as kylejt said, it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to prevent an ineligible player from playing-manager, scorekeeper, umpire, opposing manager. How did no one notice this happening?

So, at the game last night, we found out that what happened was this.

The best team in the tournament (call them Team A), during the first game (they beat us handily) had their pitchers play split innings, because they didn't know it was against the rules. Apparently our coaches thought "Hey, that seems like a good idea, give the pitchers some rest between pitching" so they thought they would try it.

So now it turns out that the team that just appealed our game (Team B), and got themselves a win, are also appealing the game against Team A as well. Of course, they did not know it was illegal either at the time of the game, and did not protest at the time of their game against Team A. But hey, they got the forfeit against us even though they didn't protest at the time, so why not? That will improve their overall record from 1-5 to 3-3! Not bad!

Of course some of the other parents on our team are now asking why WE don't appeal our game against Team A, since apparently they broke the same rule. I was very proud of our coaches when they said that Team A beat us because their kids played better, not because of some pitching subs, and there was no way they are interested in or would accept a forfeit win under those circumstances.

Sigh. Such serious business it all is...

I just hope we get to play Team B in the playoffs...

[johnnyg08]

Rather than claiming ignorance, why don't you/they ask before you do something like that. If nobody's ever done it before, in baseball, chances are it's illegal, not some new idea that nobody's thought of.

[PeteBooth]

Better idea: Play team Z FOR FUN and have a good time. After the game let the kids swim and have a barbecue

FWIW Ask the KIDS what they want.

hey guys we can play an INTENSE game OR

we can go to the local park play against team Z for fun and THEN go swimming and have a barbecue

In the scheme of things is it really that BIG of deal to beat team B?

Youth Sports is simply OUT OF CONTROL

Pete Booth

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Better idea: Play team Z FOR FUN and have a good time. After the game let the kids swim and have a barbecue

FWIW Ask the KIDS what they want.

hey guys we can play an INTENSE game OR

we can go to the local park play against team Z for fun and THEN go swimming and have a barbecue

In the scheme of things is it really that BIG of deal to beat team B?

Youth Sports is simply OUT OF CONTROL

Pete Booth

Well, lets not over-state things. The kids are having a good time regardless.

And no, in the scheme of things it isn't a big deal to beat Team B at all. but that doesn't mean I won't enjoy it if the kids do so anyway.

Heck, in the scheme of things the ONLY thing that is a "big deal" is that the kids have fun, and hopefully learn something. I think they will learn a lot from the entire thing, and maybe the parents will too...

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Berkut

So, at the game last night, we found out that what happened was this.

The best team in the tournament (call them Team A), during the first game (they beat us handily) had their pitchers play split innings, because they didn't know it was against the rules. Apparently our coaches thought "Hey, that seems like a good idea, give the pitchers some rest between pitching" so they thought they would try it.

So now it turns out that the team that just appealed our game (Team B), and got themselves a win, are also appealing the game against Team A as well. Of course, they did not know it was illegal either at the time of the game, and did not protest at the time of their game against Team A. But hey, they got the forfeit against us even though they didn't protest at the time, so why not? That will improve their overall record from 1-5 to 3-3! Not bad!

Of course some of the other parents on our team are now asking why WE don't appeal our game against Team A, since apparently they broke the same rule. I was very proud of our coaches when they said that Team A beat us because their kids played better, not because of some pitching subs, and there was no way they are interested in or would accept a forfeit win under those circumstances.

Sigh. Such serious business it all is...

I just hope we get to play Team B in the playoffs...

Tournament? Playoffs coming up? Just what situation are we discussing here?

And BTW, how could two different coach groups go through an entire season and not know pitchers can't return. It's in the rule book in more than one place (Reg VI(b), 3.03(3), and T-Rule 4(c)).

[Berkut]

[QUOTE=Rich Ives;685636]Tournament? Playoffs coming up? Just what situation are we discussing here?
[quote]

Uhhh, I don't know, really - my kid has only been playing baseball for 2 years, so I am not sure how all this works.

He played on the local 10-11 year old LL team earlier this year. Then he was selected after that "season" ended to play on the 10-11 year old post-season team made up of players from the 8 or so teams that played in the local "regular season" that plays in this "tournament" with teams from around the area. They play 6 more games, which seeds them for a actual elimination-type tournament. I *think* but am not at all certain, that this feeds somehow into the LL regionals or something like that? No idea, really.

And BTW, how could two different coach groups go through an entire season and not know pitchers can't return. It's in the rule book in more than one place (Reg VI(b), 3.03(3), and T-Rule 4(c)).

Never underestimate the ability of a group of people to all be wrong together. It is quite impressive, really. Hell, I've sat in a locker room after a football game with 4 other experienced officials wondering how we ALL managed to screw up some rules interpretation that in hindsight seems rather obvious.

They screwed up. The more I learn, the more I think that the process for resolving that screw up was pretty much ignored and screwed up even more. But at the end of the day, it was their mistake, and they are willing to accept the consequences, and move on.

Like someone said earlier - the kids mostly don't care. Some disappointment that they didn't get a win they thought they had, but they are playing anyway, so oh well.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

And BTW, how could two different coach groups go through an entire season and not know pitchers can't return. It's in the rule book in more than one place (Reg VI(b), 3.03(3), and T-Rule 4(c)).

Rich, you're making a huge assumption that coaches actually read the rule book.